SCOUTS-L
----------
COLD WEATHER
CAMPING
&
KLONDIKE DERBYS

Date:         Tue, 31 Oct 1995 21:14:00 MST
From: "Chris Haggerty, Sierra Vista, Arizona" CHAGGERTY@BPA.ARIZONA.EDU

Subject:      Winter Camping

Below is a list of items I picked up from a winter camp awareness program done by the O-A in San Francisco.  This list is about 15 years old, please keet that in mind (newer material are available). I have added some comments at the end and have used this with our scouts when we go camping in the mountains in the Winter.  Hope this helps!

                   RULES AND INSTRUCTIONS FOR
                    KEEPING WARM IN THE SACK

1. REMEMBER:  The sleeping bag doesn't heat you, you heat it.  So use this rule, "Thickness is   
    warmth", to keep this heat.  If  you're cold, add some more insulations (blankets, clothes, more
    newspaper).
2. DO NOT SLEEP IN BOTTOM OF BAG:  Your breath contains water.  If  you close your bag 
    with your head inside, then this water sticks to the bag.   Wear a hat to keep your head warm.
3. CHANGE CLOTHES:  NEVER sleep in wet clothes.  Even perspiration will chill you at night.
4. EAT A CANDY BAR:  This increases your metabolism (moves your blood faster) and it helps 
    keep you warm.
5. GO TO THE BATHROOM BEFORE BED:  This saves you a middle of the night trip in the 
    cold.
6. DO NOT DRY "WET" CLOTHES IN BAG:  Moisture will travel from wet clothes to sleeping 
    bag.
7. PUT TOMORROW'S CLOTHES UNDER BAG:  This heats up clothes for tomorrow's cold 
    morning and also provides more insulation.
8. FLUFF UP YOUR BAG:  Always fluff up bag before using to create the thickness important in 
    keeping warm.
9. MOST IMPORTANT, KEEP IT DRY:  Keep all your sleeping gear dry and follow these rules, 
    and winter camp should prove to be a rewarding experience.

                 IMPORTANT STUFF TO KEEP IN MIND
 1. Clothing does not make you warm; it is your body processes that keep you warm.  Clothing 
     merely provides the insulation to preserve your warmth.
 2. Layered thickness is warmth.
 3. Keep your torso warm so that it can send heat to the extremities.
 4. Avoid sweating by ventilation.
 5. Keep rain and wind out of your insulation.
 6. Use your head.  Keep it covered when you're cold; remove cap as you warm up to avoid 
     sweating.
 7. Strain one muscle against another to maintain metabolism.
 8. Wool clothing is best but needs wind protection, synthetics are next best.  Down is OK as long 
      as it stays dry, cotton is a poor choice.
 9. If your feet are cold, put a hat on.
10. Remember the word "COLD" - Keep your clothing  Clean.  avoid  Overheating
      wear clothing  Loose and Keep it  Dry

          RECOMMENDED CLOTHING FOR TWO DAY WINTER CAMP

In addition or in substitution to what you would normally bring to camp, bring:

2 shirts (wool,best, or flannel)
2 pairs wool or synthetic pants
(Strongly recommend against cotton pants like jeans.  They absorb
moisture like a sponge).
fishnet, thermal or polypropaline underwear
boots (WATERPROOFED)
2 pairs of heavy socks (wool recommended)
2 pairs lighter socks (polypropaline is best)
Windbreaker (as is or part of heavier jacket)
balaclavia or stocking cap (wool is best)
parka or heavy jacket
mittens, (WOOL, gloves not recommended except as extra pair)
extra shoes

It is always best to stay dry when camping in the snow, but you can
expect to get wet and should be prepared.  Boots or other shoes
which are not waterproof will normally start getting the feet wet
and cold after less than 15 minutes in the snow (depending on
temperature, the colder it is, the longer the feet stay dry).  Low
top shoes will not keep the snow out of the shoes.  Gaiters can be
made from plastic bags and a strong tape like duck tape.  Do not
cover the bottom of you shoes with plastic, doing so will cause you
to lose almost all of your traction (and you will fall down!).

Unless your parents are planning to buy some of the items on this
list anyway, do not run out and start spending lots of money on
cloths and equipment.  If all your pants are jeans, for example,
bring three or four pairs and change frequently.  If you are in
doubt or have questions, call one of the troop leaders for advice.

Date:         Wed, 1 Nov 1995 09:48:09 -0600
From: "Dr. Steven C. Myers" <r1scm@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: keeping warm

Gerry Owen asked about the cold and how to keep warm while winter camping.
In addition Rob Morley said
>I have heard this works, but I have never tried it.  Fill a canteen with hot
>water, wrap it in a towl, and put it int the bottom of the bag.  It should
>act as a hot water bottle.  (Just make sure it doesn't leak <g>)

By all means, change the socks before bed, but don't try the water bottle
effect!!!  The water will cool down very rapidly and will not be effective.
Besides,an old adage is if you can feel the heat, you're not insulated well
enough.  True winter campers avoid those warming fires.  All they do is make
you sweat which later freezes.  So how do you keep warm?

First get a copy of the Fieldbook and a copy of the Venture phamplet called
"Snow Camping."  Also, see the feature in Woods Wisdom which is really good.
 They will give you plenty of pointers.

I favor wool and polypro clothing and plenty of layers.  I often do not wear
the top or "heavy coat" layer at all.  Start with a under layer of polypro
(socks, pants, and shirt).  The next layer is a regular pair of pants and
shirt (flannel or wool) and heavy weight wool socks.  Make sure their is
room (air) in the boots -- it's the air that insulates.  Make sure to get
waterproof but breathable boots.  If my feet get wet my whole day is ruined.
Over this layer I use fleese, heavy weight pants and a mid weight sweater.
They are lighter and warmer than wool and will hold warmth when wet.  The
nex layer is waterproof snow pants and a midweight jacket with a waterproof
layer (light rain jacket) over it.  Many times one or more layers aren't
worn.  I have always hauled along, but never used, a heavy parka which will
fit over my outfit above.

The single best investment I ever made outside of wool socks was my capelene
(sp?) underware.  It is worth its weight in gold.  Nah, teh best investment
was my goretex vasque boots.

At night, I sleep in clean dry cloths (capelene-polypro with fleese or wool
on top.  I always include a wool hat since you can loose an incredible
amount of heat throught your head.  Sometimes I wear a hooded sweatshirt
with hood up before applying the wool cap.  The hood keeps the draft off the
back of the neck.  Out troop has hooded sweatshirts for just this purpose.

Use a good quality mummy bag and draw the hood around your head.  For your
cold feet, make sure the socks are clean and dry and roomy.  Tight clothing
just won't keep you as warm.  Also try someind of foot bag in the bottom of
your mummy bag.  I have actually put my gloves over my toes when the cold
challenges.

Maybe this is not "right," but i keep a supply of chocolate nearby.  At my
age, I notice that the old furnace gives out about 4 am in the morning.
That is when I wake up, cold, and put on more clothes and eat my chocolate.
 I can usually get back to sleep pretty fast.

Finally, don't underestimate the insulating quality of a good ground pad.
The flat closed cell foam pads are ok (opencell just act as sponges getting
everything soaked), riderests are better, but thermarests are the best.  You
should have 3 times (in insulating value) under you that you have on top of
you.  Make sure you never come in direct contact with the icy floor.  Stay
on the pad.

For you and your Scouts, this is the time to emphasize that "A Scout is
Clean."  Add "a Scout is Dry" and you have the formula.  Do not allow the
scouts to clown around too much, the sweat is a threat and they can loose
valuable energy.  When my troop first went camping in the snow, I learned a
lot.  We called the camp off early and I se about learning how to make them
successful.

Remember if you want to stay warm, think COLD
C = stay Clean
O = avoid Overheating
L = dress in Layers (I recommend a top waterproof one)
D = stay Dry.

Have a great time.  When you survive a weekend of bitter cold, properly
trained, your troop will gain some real braging rights.  A line on our
recruiting brochure reads
"Have you ever slept on ice and stayed warm?"  Yeah, we push our advantages!

Steve Myers
Scoutmaster Troop One Akron OH

Date:         Wed, 1 Nov 1995 09:48:57 -0600
From: "Dr. Steven C. Myers" <r1scm@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: keeping warm & the stupid game)

I just read Matt's message and I have a couple of points to make to his fine
post.

>We do a deep freeze every year and we have not had any problem with this as
>long as we follow the following guidlines:
... deleted...
>        Layers          This means not only your clothing bu also your
>                        sleeping gear.  We use a full size bag on a pad.
>                        Inside that bag we use a second insulite pad on
>                        which we place a 3/4 bag.  In this bag we have a
>                        wool blanket.  We also alternate the zipper to
>                        reduce drafts.  Outside bag zipper on one side
>                        and the inside bag zipper on the other.
  Matt, I for one am way too big for this to work.  I cannot getinto some
sleeping bags, so for the gratationally challenged, this does not work.
...text deleted...
>        Consumables     Water is a must.Drink lots of it.
This is so so so important.  I can't believe I forgot it.  Well I was
concentrating on clothes, but drinking plenty of water is essential.

Aslo, this reminds me to put in a plug for you to train your scouts in the
signs and dangers of HYPOTHERMIA.  You can lose a scout this way!  We teach
our scouts to play the stupid game with their buddy.  We are deadly serious
about buddies in the winter, and no one in a patrol may proceed when one
member is cold until the stupid game has been played.  Now this  game has
few rules and the scouts love to see who is being stupid.  You can just
imagine. However, the game recognizes that a early sign of hypothermia is
the lack of sufficient oxyginated blood to the brain.  A Scout with
hypothermia will behave studidly.  When we see that, we act.  The game
begins with someone saying to another "Are you being stupid or what?"  If
the answer is no (and the questioner is satisfied, the game is over.  If
not, then its first aid t the rescue.  A few winters back, Mike Thomas was
very cold and shivering.  Well who wasn't -- it was cold!  Mike failed the
game when he refused to admit that zippin up his coat would keep him warmer.
 He was really actimd stupid.  He was in real trouble.  Since it was a
District Klondike I took him to the warming cabin and set him in front of
the fire.  (He also did not thing that going to the warming cabin would help
him get warm.)

So play the stupid game.  Have fun with the questions and answers, but when
you get the scout who can't seem to come up with the right answers, seek hel
immediately.

Steve Myers
I used to be a Bear

Date:         Wed, 1 Nov 1995 13:23:30 -0500
From: Stern Dixon <SDixon@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: keeping warm

A couple of tips on keeping warm.

Always use an ensolite or closed cell pad (very firm) on the ground itself.
 It offers more insulation than open cell foam (the spongy stuff) and it
doesn't absorb moisture either from your body or the ground.

Always take off all your clothes, not just your socks.  Your cotton tshirts,
et al, will absorb body moisture even if you've been in them for a couple of
hours.

Wear head gear to sleep in.  A knit cap (not cotton) will keep your head warm
and prevent lots of heat loss.

Wrap your feet in your down jacket or vest if the bottom of your bag is
nippy.

Use a bag liner of a light polypro. pile fabric.  Campmor et. al. sell these
for about $30.

Eat something with a lot of fat before going to bed.

A tip I heard once, but haven't tried:  drink warm concentrated jello before
going to bed.  it will keep you from having to get up in the night to pee.  I
won't get into the reasons this works.  Use your imagination.

Final tip: Pay no attention to the comfort rating on your bag.  I figure a -5
bag will keep me warm to about 15 degrees if I do all the other things.

Date:         Wed, 1 Nov 1995 13:08:52 -0500
From: "Paul H. Brown" <phbrown@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject:      Re: keeping warm

Don't wear the same clothes to bed that you wore that day:  too much
perspiration in them.  And don't wear jeans for any purpose.  A sweat
suit makes a good winter pajama set.  Wear a hat to bed.  If wool makes
you itch, wear something else.  Make sure you don't try to sleep
dehydrated: you'll sleep colder.
YiS,

Paul H. Brown, UC, GW District, National Capital Area Council
phbrown@capaccess.org

Date:         Wed, 1 Nov 1995 07:24:39 -0600
From: "Greg L. Gough" <ggough@MAIL.ORION.ORG>
Subject:      Re: keeping warm

Here are a few tips on staying warm in your sleeping bag.
1. About an hour befor bed eat something calorie dense, peanuts etc.
This gives you slow burning fuel for the night.
2. Drink a cup of hot cocoa.  Any cold liquid you consume your body has
to warm.
3. Change all your clothes before entering your sleeping bag.  I wear
minimum of polypropolene long underware and liner socks with a wool blend
over.
4. Wear a full face mask.  You still lose most of your heat through your
head.  The new polypropolene ones are comfy and warm.
5. Don't sleep with your head covered with your bag.  This introduces
moisture into your bag.
6. Use a thermorest or comparable sleeping pad or two foam pads and or
place leaves or straw under your tent.
7. If you wake up cold, put on your rain suit or cover yourself with one
of those emergency blankets (foil coated plastic) or tear open a trash
bag and place it on top of you. all form a vapor barrier and will keep
you warm but you will have to change your clothes when getting up (they
will be moist)
8. Preheat your bag with those Hot Hands hand warmers.  I don't sleep
with them, too hot!  But I do start them in the morning and put them in
my boots :)

I love to cold weather camp.  Have been out in 3 degree weather and the
above tips have made me comfortable.  I welcome any other tips that I
might use.

Greg Gough
SM Troop 201, Ozark, MO.  I used to be an Owl but I will always be an Eagle!

Date:         Wed, 1 Nov 1995 09:20:55 -0500
From: Internet-Go Ahead <goahead@EF.COM>
Subject:      keeping warm

First of all let me explain my qualifications: When I was in the U.S. Army I
went to Arctic Warfare School, This was not to only to teach about combat in
the Arctic but to teach Extreme Cold weather survival skills. I have been to
Okpik(which was the Maine High Adventure Base Winter Camp) several times and
can honestly say that I know a fair amount about cold weather camping. so here
goes

1 go to the bathroom before you get into bed
2 make sure you have plenty of insulation below you 1-2 inches
3 leave the back flap of your tent open about 4 inches. this will allow the
moisture from your breath to escape out of the tent and not collect on the
sides
4 eat something high in calories before you go to bed. Your stomach is your
furnace and will generate heat while you sleep.
5 in extreme cold weather you CANNOT rely upon external heat sources for
warmth.
They will only warm the side facing the heat source and subsequently cause
sweating.
6 layering this is most important while you are active
7 drink water
8 you are better off getting into your sleeping bag in your boxers or naked
than putting on sweats.They are just like the name implies they absorb your
body moisture and trap it next to your skin making you cold. the best type of
under wear for winter camping is Silk. it is a very good insulator
9 DO NOT wear the same clothes to bed that you had on all day this is
important for socks also
10 put you clothes for the next day under your head or at the bottom of your
bag
11 wear a ski hat to bed REMEMBER 70% of body heat is lost through the top of
your head
12 DO NOT breathe into your sleeping bag this may warm it for a short time but
the moisture in your breath will be worse later in the night
13 put your propane tanks at the bottom of your sleeping bag or use WHITE FUEL
14 Get the Venture Crew hand book on Winter Camping and read it
15 Obtain the Army Feild Manual on Cold weather Operations. I don't remember
the exact title or the FM number but you can find it at the library or on line
some where
I you have any more Questions you can Call me at 800-242-4686 ext 1913 or ask
for Vince Silvia

SCOUTS OUT!
Vince Silvia
goahead@ef.com

Date:         Thu, 2 Nov 1995 09:16:11 -0600
From: August Treubig <atreubi@ENTERGY.COM>
Subject:      Re: keeping warm

One thing that I haven't seen anyone else talk about is powdering your
feet with powder to keep them dry.  The powder absorbs the moisture.. for
a while anyway..

YiS

August
 
______________________________________________________________________________
Date:         Wed, 8 Nov 1995 09:36:12 EST
From: Peter Farnham <pfarnham@ASBMB.FASEB.ORG>
Subject:      Re: surviving cold, a situation

     Jim,

     Regarding your hypothetical situation, first, check him out.  Make
     sure he changed his clothing before going to bed--the clothes should
     be completely dry.  Have him put on a wool sweater, socks, etc.  Put a
     stocking cap on his head.  Make sure the sleeping bag is dry, and that
     he's got insulation--extra clothes, thermal pads, etc.--underneath his
     bag.  Check the rating of the bag (of course, you should have done
     this before leaving the parking lot on the way to the trip).  If it's
     a summer-rated bag, get a blanket or two around him.

     I would closely monitor the situation, and if in twenty minutes or so
     the young man's teeth had not stopped chattering, then I would go to
     phase two.  Get him into the car if available, and turn on the heater.
     If you're backpacking and a car isn't reasonably close by, then get a
     fire going and get some hot soup into him.  Keep the kid wrapped up in
     as many warm clothes as you can find.   If necessary, get into the bag
     with him yourself (of course, wake up your second adult and have him
     join you by the fire).

     In any case, DO NOT go back to bed until you are sure the young man is
     okay.

     I'm taking my boys, including a bunch of new scouts, camping in
     mid-December to Catoctin Mountain Park, near Thurmont, MD.  It gets
     real cold up there, particularly when the wind gets blowing.  We're
     going to work on cold-weather camping skills for the several troop
     meetings prior to going, and I will make sure my boys are prepared for
     the cold.  I've been told that the new scouts are usually not a
     problem--but their parents are, showing up for trips woefully
     unprepared.  With this in mind, I will bring along a whole duffel bag
     full of wool sweaters and stocking caps, as well as extra blankets. I
     also plan to send a note home to all the boys ahead of time explaining
     the dangers of cold and what they should bring with them by way of
     clothing.

     YiS,

     Pete Farnham
     SM, Troop 113
     GW District, NCAC
     Alexandria, VA
     pfarnham@capaccess.org

     I also want to thank this list for the many fine suggestions on
     dealing with the cold on a camping trip.  Most of them are pretty
     common sensical, but it has helped to have them all collected in one
     place.

Date:         Tue, 7 Nov 1995 16:09:01 -0500
From: Jim Holman <jrholman@POSTBOX.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject:      surviving cold, a situation

This is a followup to the keeping warm thread.

Let's say you have the following situation.  Cold weather, teens.  Everyone
goes to bed and a couple of hours later, you wake up and find a kid trying
to rebuild the fire.  He says he is 'freezing to death', he's shivering and
his teeth are chattering.  You convince him to go back into his sleeping bag
to try to get warm. He complains he's still cold, but you tell him just to
wait a while and he'll warm back up.  You go back to bed.  Now, what are the
dangers here?  If you go off to sleep, and he DOESN'T warm up, is he likely
to die from hypothermia?  How can you tell the difference between someone
who just gets cold and someone in danger without staying up all night
yourself?  Can a person go to sleep and not realize they are getting so cold
they are in a dangerous situation?  I'm not concerned about daytime when you
can keep an eye on everyone, but nightime concerns me.

Jim Holman                                              (216)-263-3772
Head, Computing and Statistical Services, OARDC
holman.2@osu.edu

Date:         Thu, 9 Nov 1995 16:53:09 -0600
From: Marc Solomon <msolomon@TEK1.TEKNIQ.COM>
Subject:      Re: physiological question

At 12:26 PM 11/9/95 -0600, golden cliff wrote:
>The reason you want to empty your bladder at night is because a full
>bladder will rob your body of heat.  It is similar to the hot water
>bottle.  A water water bottle will give you warmth until it cools, after
>that it takes heat from you.  A full bladder requires you to heat excess
>fluid in your body.  An empty bladder does not.

Correct.

>Empty your bladder before turning in.  If you have to go in the middle of
>the night, go.  Don't hold out until morning or you will become cold.

Always a good idea for a number of reasons.

>I don't go for the little chamber bottles in the tent.  A quick visit
>outside isn't that bad.  I've always found it to be well worth the effort.

I disagree with you here.  During my OKPIK training, one instructor went to
great lengths to explain how, after taking the steps to leave your tent to
urinate, you will not have the body heat left to rewarm your sleeping bag.
First, you open your sleeping bag losing all the warmth you stored in your
sleeping bag and much of the warmth you stored within whatever clothes you
wore to sleep.  You then put on cold clothes, socks, and boots and lose more
body heat warming up these articles of clothing.  Then you open your tent to
get out losing any warmth you had stored within the tent.  Then after
walking a short distance, you open up the newly warmed clothes to allow you
to urinate, losing a bit more body heat in the process.  Then you expel a
few pints of warm fluid from your body, once more losing a great amount of
stored body heat.  After finsihing all this, you trudge back to your tent,
open it up once more (your tent mate will love you by now ;) ), losing more
stored heat from the tent (if any remained from the previous opening), take
of the clothes you just warmed up, and get into your now cold sleeping bag.
If the temperature when you started this trek was freezing or below, the
chances of your body generating enough heat for the second time in a few
hours (remember you had to warm your bag when you first went to sleep) is
ridiculously small.  After a short time, you will probably realize this, get
dressed for a second time and go start a fire.

I cannot tell you the number of times I have been wakened by the noise of
one or more Scouters huddled around a fire at three thirty in the morning.
It seems to happen more to the Scouters because after dinner they sit around
swilling down coffee until it is time for bed.  The Scouts on the other hand
might have one or two hot cocoa's in the evening and with their higher
(usually) level of activity there body uses the fluid to replace fluid lost
during the day.

By the way, this same instructor suggested using two heavy duty gallon zip
locks for these emergencies.  Fill one.  Seal it. Place it in the other.
Seal that one.  Place it in your sleeping bag as a hot "water" bottle.  With
my immense bulk, I doubt the seals would hold if I rolled over.  My solution
is still stop drinking a few hours before going to sleep and to expel any
remaining fluid before retiring.

Yours in Scouting,

            +--------------------------+-----------------------+
            | Marc W. Solomon          | Unit Commissioner     |
            | msolomon@tek1.tekniq.com | Sycamore District     |
            | marcsol@aol.com          | Blackhawk Council, IL |
            +--------------------------+-----------------------+
             I use to be a wise old owl . . . Now I am just old

Date:         Mon, 13 Nov 1995 13:13:28 -0800
From: Derry Hamilton <D.Hamilton@SMS.ED.AC.UK>
Organization: Edinburgh University
Subject:      Re: surviving cold, a situation

This is a late posting that is sent using a dicey mailer since my normal
one
is having a mid life crisis and can never remember my email address.
Though it should be rectified soon
The scout in question is quite clearly not hypothermic, though he may
be potentialy hypothermic.  If you look up your first aid manual the
cause is low core temoerature (as measured by a thermometer in the
mouth or similar).  This leads to lagging behind (if walking) , mood
swings, unpredictability, possibly violent behaviour etc.  It is when
the shivering response stops that the person becomes hypothermic.
If he is still shivering then some high calorie food is a good idea
but if he is truly hypothermic then putting him in a bag will be your
best option whilst you are calling the ambulence.  True hypothermia
_cannot_ be treated on camp an requires medical attention.  It is
rare for somebody with hypothermia to be able to diagnose it for
themselves, one of the symptoms is that you stop caring.  Since the
scout came to you shivering then he is safe for the moment.
What you should do is check his clothing (Even if he is in a decent
bag if the weather is that cold then he should be wearing a jersey,
warm P.J.s and bed socks. These must be bone dry. Next his bedding,
is the seeping bag OK, is he using it properly, does he have a roll
mat or blankets beneath it, once again is it dry? Next check the
tent, is it brailed down properly, is the ground sheet covering the
sod cloths, is there anything touching the fly sheet?
If these are all correct and if he really is very cold then an idea
that works is to get everyone together who is awake and wants
from the whole troop, which shouldn't be too many if it is late and put
on
a dixie of soup that will be drunk.  If nessicary have a _quiet_ sing
along by a small fire or in a tent, making sure that everyone is well
wrapped up whilst singing and drinking.  When all is done get
everyone to bed end ensure that all the patrols are safely done up
then get to bed.
I have it on reliable advice that cold cannot kill you when you are
asleep,
you wake well up before it happens.  As I said above, if the scout
really is hypothermic then it is not a situation that can be dealt
with in camp.  The standard treatment is to mostly immerse (so they can
still
breath safely ) the victim in water at 40 degrees Celsius ( my sums tell
me that this is about 104 degrees Farenheight) until
they begin to sweat. At this point the core temperature is in the
safe zone, then take them out rapidly, dry them and put them in a
warm bed.  The British mountain rescue use a synthetic bag with
fibres similar to the foil in a space blanket when they are uplifting
a hypothermia victim and this is often warm enough to reverse
hypothermia on its own (with a healthy person in it too)
in case they have to weather out a storm.
We had a thread about first aid training a few days ago.  This serves
to reiterate the necesity for good wild country first aid ability.
YiS
Derry Hamilton
Junior leader
1st North Berwick
Scotland

Date:         Mon, 13 Nov 1995 11:38:31 -0500
From: Robert Sheneman <rsheneman@PPPL.GOV>
Subject:      Staying Warm &VB Clothing-Longish

Following the thread of cold weather clothing and staying warm, Paul Brown
and I have been conversing off-list about this topic.  He was particularly
interested in vapor-barrier type clothing and my suggestion that he
experiment with different ideas before using them on a trip.  At Paul's
suggestion, I'll share my $0.02 with the list.  I've added some background
info. [in brackets] to help folks follow the conversation.  This is by no
means the definitive word on vapor barrier clothing, keeping warm, etc.
I'd certainly like to hear what others have to say.

******************* Extracted Text *****************
I'm sure you've got a pretty good  handle on winter camping, but my
experience comes from a number of years with backcountry skiing, ski
mountaineering, snow&ice climbing and other cold weather activities  (my
hands and feet are still a little sensitive after a brush with frostbite).

I think what you're trying to achieve with plastic bags is the vapor
barrier effect.  This is where a thin vapor-proof layer is placed near the
skin and insulative clothing is worn on top.  The theory is that a) much
water and heat is lost through evaporation, and b)by reducing the
evaporation you reduce the heat loss.  It works very very well in really
cold situations.  The key, in my experience is to get the vapor barrier
close to the skin.  I've used a thin polyolefin or polypropylene sock
inside the vapor barrier and then wear heavy wool socks outside.  Be
careful of wrinkles in the bag as this can cause blisters.  I'd experiment
a few times when out for the day before banking on anything too much for a
winter camping trip, and _always_ carry spare dry socks.

Also, much of the heat loss from your feet is through the sole of boots
that are too light (nothing different than your sleeping bag situation).
Finally, be very careful not to make to boots too tight, you need all the
circulation you can get down there when the mercury plunges.

BTW, I think a vapor barrier system also works very well for sleeping in
extremely cold weather.

******************* Follow-up Message *****************
I've tested various clothing options when shoveling snow, walking the dog,
sledding with the kids, or otherwise close to home in a cold setting.  Day
trips are also good time to try something new.  This enables me to
fine-tune the layering without risking myself on a backcountry trip with
unfamiliar gear.  Your proposed approach sounds okay to me [....as an
experiment I might try a latex glove on one hand under my mittens and a
plastic bag on one foot under my sox and see if I notice a difference...].
I've not used latex gloves myself, so can't really tell you from direct
experience.  The use of thin liner socks helps to avoid the feeling that
your feet are swimming in sweat.

I think my vapor barrier socks came from Campmor or maybe REI.  They're
very thin neoprene rubber with a fairly comfortable fleece lining.  They
fit snugly so I don't have to worry about blisters.  Again, I caution
against trying to cram extra socks (even VB type) into boots that are too
tight.  My winter boots have a felt liner (I always carry spares so they
can be changed out when wet).  Ski boots, etc. are sized to fit over the
appropriate socks.  My cold weather clothing system consists of synthetic
long underwear (weight varies w/ expected activity level, temps, etc.),
fleece or pile mid layers (vest, jacket, and pants, all w/ vent zippers),
and Gore-Tex top layer (wind/water protection).  I've moved to the
synthetics because of their performance to weight ratio.  They also dry
quicker (NOT NEAR THE FIRE!) and keep you warm even if wet.  Rather than VB
gloves, I usually wear thin thermax or polypro gloves, then either wool or
fleece mittens, and some sort of outer shell mitten (Gore-Tex or similar).
This gives flexibility in the layering and dexterity as required (try
working a camera or surveying instrument with big mitts on).  I recognize
that this type of outfit is pricey, but I think you can assemble a similar
outfit without spending a fortune.  It's really a matter of what your needs
and budget are

The sleeping bag liner is thin coated nylon.  It's made by North Face and
fits inside my mummy bag (700 fill goose down with a Gore-Tex outer layer).
The theory here is to protect the down insulation from vapor on both the
inside and outside and to allow any moisture that does get in to evaporate
through the Gore-Tex (driven by the temp. differential).  Needless to say,
this arrangement is not on the cheap, nor is it appropriate for everyone
(probably overkill for most folks, but vital in a snow cave or
high-altitude bivouac).  It is really warm and about as lightweight as I
could make it for the temps encountered.  I wear thermax long undies and a
good thermax hat to sleep in.  If it's really cold I'll include the fleece
pants and vest, but the danger is that they become too wet to wear the next
day.  I take the gloves in with me too, but most other clothing will go
under the bag.  I use both a ThermaRest and a thin closed cell pad beneath
my bag if its really cold (also more comfortable on tired bones).  We also
keep smaller pieces of closed cell foam to sit on, put the stove on, etc.

To tell the truth, I also have a synthetic fill bag which gets a good bit
of use, because the system described above is too warm for some trips (even
in "winter").  I've tried a number of different systems and found the VB
liner best in really cold weather (single digits and below), and a good
synthetic fill bag better in moderately cold temps.  I don't really have a
good explanation for this, but I suspect it's because I end up feeling too
"clammy" in the VB liner when it's warmer.  No good idea why.

I tend to agree with much of what was posted about staying warm (especially
NOT sending a kid back to bed without determining the situation and getting
him stabilized first), taking a leak just before bed, and having
water/snack readily available.  I often store water bottles inside my bag
(double ziplocked), because when you've got to melt snow and fuel is
scarce, you don't want to waste any.  I use white gas exclusively during
backcountry trips, especially in cold weather, and only have a propane
stove for "car camping."  I think one of the biggest dangers with sending
the kid back to bed is turning him off from winter trips all together.  As
a young scout I spent some very cold miserable nights feeling sorry for
myself before getting it together with the help of a great ASM.  He showed
interest in me, and that made a big difference in my entire scouting
experience.

BTW, I like Jim Sleezer's post about educating the parents (and boys) at a
fall meeting so they can be better prepared for cold-weather trips.  We
used to do those kinds of pre-trip demos and give handouts for many kinds
of trips (backpacking, caving, canoeing, ski touring, rock climbing, etc.),
a practice that I took with me when president of my college Outing Club.  I
think it's all part of Being Prepared.

Let me know if I can share more...sorry about the length, but I hope it
helps some.

Date:         Thu, 18 Jan 1996 13:17:28 CDT
From: Todd Norman Tingblad <tingbltn@uwec.edu>
Subject:      This Just In...

NEWS ADVISORY: For Immediate Release...

NEWS DESK: With extremely low temperatures expected throughout the weekend in
the upper Midwest, this may be excellent information to include with weather
reports, cold weather news stories, outdoors reports, or general news...

Contact:  Rob Schultz, Snow Base Director, 612-224-1891, ext. 139.  Evenings:
612-430-4979

January 18, 1996

Clothing and Dress Tips For Sub-Zero Temperatures

Here are a few tips for parents on how to protect children from sub-zero
temperatures.  Remember, children often do not understand the dangers
associated with windchills and extremely cold temperatures.  Watch them
closely to make sure that they are dressed properly when going outside.

First, there are many things to look for when choosing a jacket or parka for
cold weather.  It's important that cuffs do not contain elastic that closes
tightly around the wrists or waist.  Especially under heavy clothing, elastic
may slow blood flow and cause a greater susceptability to frostbite or frozen
fingers.

Metal zippers can actually transfer the cold into the inner liner of a
jacket.  In addition to the danger of metal zippers freezing to fingers, they
sometimes freeze shut as body moisture escapes and ices up the jacket shell.

Jackets with hoods are especially important in sub-zero temperatures.  Hoods
not only help to retain heat from the head, but also protect the neck.  Hoods
with drawstrings that close around the face reduce wind that may enter the
upper portion of the jacket.

Cotton clothing retains moisture from body perspiration and may feel cold on
the skin.  Clothing made of wool, polypropelene and other materials that wick
moisture away from the body is recommended for maximum warmth.  Good long
underwear, made of fabrics such as polypropelene or capilene, is critical.
Don't leave home with out it.  Cotton long underwear, which is the type most
often to be found in department stores, will retain moisture and create
serious problems after being worn for several hours.

Mittons keep hands and fingers much warmer in cold temperatures.  Gloves
seperate the fingers which often stunts natural warming.  For extended
periods of time in the cold, pop disposable hand warmers inside mittons for
maximum warmth.

Earings, necklaces and other metal jewelry will quickly chill the skin.
Metal earings promote frostbite on the ears and can cause serious injury.  If
you must wear jewelry, take it off before you go outside and let it warm up
before putting it back on.

In extreme temperatures, always wear boots.  Most tennis shoes are
lightweight and have no heating or warmth values.  Within minutes of going
outside in tennis shoes during sub-zero temperatures, feet will chill and may
cause rapid cooling of the lower body.  Boots also protect feet from wind,
blowing snow and unexpected snow accumulation.

Although often considered "unstylish", stocking hats are the best head gear
for cold temperatures.  Caps, cowboy hats, head bands or ear muffs just don't
cut it in cold temperatures.  Stocking hats may mess up your hair, but
they'll keep you warm and save the skin and ears from frostbite or freezing.

Wearing several layers of clothing will help you to keep warm and regulate
your body heat more easily.  If you are outside performing exercise or
vigorous tasks (like skiing or snowshoeing) and you feel too hot, take off a
layer before you begin to sweat.  Remember, sweating cools the body and can
quickly get you in trouble in the outdoors when it's cold.

If you are outside for extended periods of time, it's often better to wear
suspendors rather than a belt.  The body naturally acts as a chiminey and
heat moves upward.  Belts prevent heat from travel upward through loose
clothing, and thus, may not be an ideal choice for holding loose fitting
clothing in place.

And finally, when you do go indoors,  take off excess clothing quickly so
that you do not begin to sweat.  You may also feel warmer because warm air
often does not penetrate a cold jacket quickly.

Attention News Media:  This information is provided to the community by the
Indianhead Council, Boy Scouts of America,  as a public service announcement
in helping to protect children.  The Indianhead Council operates Snow Base,
the largest Boy Scout winter camp in the United States in which Scouts are
taught survival skills for sub-zero winter camping environments.  This
winter, over 1,300 Scouts from Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa and Illinois will
camp outdoors at Snow Base: living in snow shelters and sub-zero weather
conditions.  Excellent public interest stories can be generated, as well as
interviews with our staff who are experts in winter camping and survival.
Please contact Snow Base Director Rob Schultz to schedule interview
opportunities, obtain press release information, or to arrange a visit to the
camp.  612-224-1891, ext. 139   Evening telephone: 612-430-4979   E-Mail:
robs@tcm.mn.org

==============================================================================

Even with the very cold temps and windchills for this weekend, Snowbase will
be in full operation.

Jan. 5, 6, 7  Temps from 10oF to -25oF  Windchill -none-

Jan. 12, 13, 14  Temps from 45oF to 20oF  Windchill  10oF to 0oF

Jan. 19, 20, 21  Temps from 0oF to -25oF  Windchill  -45oF to -75oF

YiS,

Todd Tingblad  --  tingbltn@uwec.edu

Date:         Mon, 8 Jan 1996 21:24:02 -0500
From: "George R. Davis" <GRDRV@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: KLONDIKE DERBY EVENTS

We are trying something new this year (for us).  We will have our
"traditional" course for the Webelos and younger scouts, with individual
stations for first aid, fire building, etc., and will use pre-built Klondike
Derby Sleds.  There is also a designated required equipment list.

We are also going to have a "Challenge Course" for the older scouts.  The
scouts are being told to come prepared for a 4 hour backcountry winter
orienteering meet, during which they will have to solve one or more problems
using scout skills.  The only required equipment is a stamp pad (we are using
alphabet rubber stamps for the orienteering checkpoints), lunch (their choice
but it must be appropriate for the conditions), and a fuel or hobo stove if
they intend to heat anything (there are fire restrictions in the county park
where we are holding the event).  The remainder of their equipment is up to
them - but they have to carry it.  The first stop will be inspection - make
sure everyone is properly clothed and that they have suitable equipment in
addition to the above minimums.  This will be scored, and they will have to
justify anything else they are bringing, or why they aren't bringing
something the staff thinks is necessary.  With assistance of the Park Ranger,
we have gotten some orienteering maps of the park which were developed by the
local orienteering club.  The scouts will be given a course to follow.

At a designated point in the course, each patrol will be interrupted to join
in a search activity - a scenario with a bus accident has been drawn up.
 Each patrol will be given a second map with their designated search area
shown - and they have to get to it, search and then provide first aid to the
victim.  This assumes that they know where they are, and how to get to the
search area.  The search "victim" will be a dummy (stuffed pants, shirt and
bag head) provided by the patrols - 1 per patrol.  After the searchers have
found their dummy, a live victim will be substituted - (we are recruiting
Webelos-age sisters of scouts) who will be marginally conscious and able to
respond to diagnosing questions.  Obviously, hypothermia will be involved, as
well as sufficient other injuries that the scouts would not be moving the
victim any great distance.  This will require shelter building, getting
heated liquids for all, and sending a party back to the Ranger station for
help.  The return trip for those sent to get help will find the original
route blocked, so that they have to find an alternate return route.  The idea
is to make the scouts have to think, work together and put what they know to
use.  We are hoping to use this to get some of the older scouts more active
in these district events.

After the completion of the above activity, there will be a Klondike
Challenge Sled Race.  Instead of using the typical sled, each patrol will
have a basic platform - douled up 2x4's that are curved in front for runners,
with a plywood deck and 4 dowels glued into the platform/2x4's on each side -
dowelsa extend 8" above the deck.  They also have poles and rope.  At the
starting signal, the team lashes the poles together and to the sled base,
load on their dummy, and proceed around the race course.  Sleds may be
pulled, pushed, carried or some combination of the above.  There will be a
few small obstacles on the course.  Sleds may be "repaired" up to the midway
point of the course.  Score will be a combination of time and judging of the
sleds at the finish line.  It may pay to spend a little more time on the
lashings to get the points at the judging.  (We got this sled idea from a
neighboring council).  The patrol has to work together.

Some of our "traditional" stations also require teamwork - shelter building,
some of the first aid problems, cooking lunch (this is a judged and timed
event).  Last year we had the scouts tie a large rope to a tree with a clove
hitch.  They weren't allowed to stand within 5 feet of the tree while doing
so.  We got some very inventive solutions to the problem.

I don't know how well the Challenge Course will work - our derby isn't until
2/3, but I'll post a follow-up afterwards.  Hope this helps.

Date:         Mon, 8 Jan 1996 21:24:02 -0500
From: "George R. Davis" <GRDRV@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: KLONDIKE DERBY EVENTS
To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L <SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU>

We are trying something new this year (for us).  We will have our
"traditional" course for the Webelos and younger scouts, with individual
stations for first aid, fire building, etc., and will use pre-built Klondike
Derby Sleds.  There is also a designated required equipment list.

We are also going to have a "Challenge Course" for the older scouts.  The
scouts are being told to come prepared for a 4 hour backcountry winter
orienteering meet, during which they will have to solve one or more problems
using scout skills.  The only required equipment is a stamp pad (we are using
alphabet rubber stamps for the orienteering checkpoints), lunch (their choice
but it must be appropriate for the conditions), and a fuel or hobo stove if
they intend to heat anything (there are fire restrictions in the county park
where we are holding the event).  The remainder of their equipment is up to
them - but they have to carry it.  The first stop will be inspection - make
sure everyone is properly clothed and that they have suitable equipment in
addition to the above minimums.  This will be scored, and they will have to
justify anything else they are bringing, or why they aren't bringing
something the staff thinks is necessary.  With assistance of the Park Ranger,
we have gotten some orienteering maps of the park which were developed by the
local orienteering club.  The scouts will be given a course to follow.

At a designated point in the course, each patrol will be interrupted to join
in a search activity - a scenario with a bus accident has been drawn up.
 Each patrol will be given a second map with their designated search area
shown - and they have to get to it, search and then provide first aid to the
victim.  This assumes that they know where they are, and how to get to the
search area.  The search "victim" will be a dummy (stuffed pants, shirt and
bag head) provided by the patrols - 1 per patrol.  After the searchers have
found their dummy, a live victim will be substituted - (we are recruiting
Webelos-age sisters of scouts) who will be marginally conscious and able to
respond to diagnosing questions.  Obviously, hypothermia will be involved, as
well as sufficient other injuries that the scouts would not be moving the
victim any great distance.  This will require shelter building, getting
heated liquids for all, and sending a party back to the Ranger station for
help.  The return trip for those sent to get help will find the original
route blocked, so that they have to find an alternate return route.  The idea
is to make the scouts have to think, work together and put what they know to
use.  We are hoping to use this to get some of the older scouts more active
in these district events.

After the completion of the above activity, there will be a Klondike
Challenge Sled Race.  Instead of using the typical sled, each patrol will
have a basic platform - douled up 2x4's that are curved in front for runners,
with a plywood deck and 4 dowels glued into the platform/2x4's on each side -
dowelsa extend 8" above the deck.  They also have poles and rope.  At the
starting signal, the team lashes the poles together and to the sled base,
load on their dummy, and proceed around the race course.  Sleds may be
pulled, pushed, carried or some combination of the above.  There will be a
few small obstacles on the course.  Sleds may be "repaired" up to the midway
point of the course.  Score will be a combination of time and judging of the
sleds at the finish line.  It may pay to spend a little more time on the
lashings to get the points at the judging.  (We got this sled idea from a
neighboring council).  The patrol has to work together.

Some of our "traditional" stations also require teamwork - shelter building,
some of the first aid problems, cooking lunch (this is a judged and timed
event).  Last year we had the scouts tie a large rope to a tree with a clove
hitch.  They weren't allowed to stand within 5 feet of the tree while doing
so.  We got some very inventive solutions to the problem.

I don't know how well the Challenge Course will work - our derby isn't until
2/3, but I'll post a follow-up afterwards.  Hope this helps.

Date:         Mon, 1 Apr 1996 18:47:23 -0700
From: Amick Robert <amick@SPOT.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Hypothermia and medical-legal aspects of first aid/consent

Rex brings up an interesting point about field care for hypothermia.  A
later post expresses concern about "good samaritan laws," and the legal*
ramifications for rendering care.  Perhaps the following will clarify
some of the concerns. (*-Please note that I am not an attorney and the
following information is not to be construed as legal advice.  It is
primarily information which I have gathered as an EMT and Red Cross
Emergency response Instructor over about 25 years, and working on
National Scout Jamboree Medical Centers and many high adventure
Scout/Explorer trips and events.  The information discussed here was
derived in consultation with physician/attorneys and other
 knowledgeable individuals.)

If you need specific legal advice on these matters it is recommended that you
consult with your local council risk manager/attorney or other qualified
professional.

First, as a Scout leader, by virtue of assuming the role of a person
entrusted to care for youth on Scouting activities, you also assume a
"duty to act."  That is, if a Scout is ill or injured, you are legally
responsible for providing emergency medical care (i.e., first aid) for that
the best of your training and ability, and to ensure that the Scout is
promptly given more "definitive care" (i.e., notifying emergency medical
services, responding an ambulance, and/or hospitalization/emergency room
care) if the injury or illness warrant such care.

To fail to provide such care especially if it can be shown that you
have been trained in appropriate procedures would legally be considered
"abandonment" of the victim and would constitute negligence on your part.
You may only relinquish care of the victim to a person with equal or
greater qualifications than yours (e.g., an EMT, Paramedic, nurse, or
physician) and you must be able to verify that the person is qualified.

As far as "permission to treat" goes, any Scout trip must have a parental
consent and medical treatment consent/waiver filled out and signed by the
Scout's parent or legal guardian.  This gives the leader blanket
permission to treat or arrange for treatment of emergent AND non-emergent
medical/trauma problems  while the Scout is under the care of the leader.  I
posted a copy of our permission slip in January, and would be happy to
send another copy to anyone interested. As noted in another post, anyone
with life threatening illness or injury who is mentally incapable of
refusing or consenting to treatment, gives "implied" consent for
treatment under the law.  This applies to minors (under age 18 in most
states) and to adults. It also applies to those who object to any medical
treatment on religious grounds, if the injury/illness is immediately life
threatening, and/or the individual is under the age of majority (18)or is
not an "emancipated minor." (check with your legal/medical advisor in
your area to clarify these issues for your situation).

It is always essential and appropriate to get verbal consent from anyone
you treat, even if you have written permission, and as noted this should
be done in the presence of a witness. Nontheless if you have a "standing
written consent" from parents, there is no question, and it may save you a
lot of time and frustration in an emergency room if you are far away from
home.

Hypothermia treatment utilizing heat transfer by body contact in a field
setting when other options are not immediately available is
 uniformly defined in wilderness medical treatment protocols and literature,
and considerable evidence has shown this method to have saved lives. It
is defined as a "standard of care" for hypothermia which any "reasonable
and prudent" person with appropriate knowledge and training would
administer given the circumstances and lack of other options.

Certainly,if you are in "civilized" surroundings where sources of external
heat such as vehicles, warm water, warmed beverages, etc., are available,
and the patient is still capable of ingesting warmed beverages, those are
appropriate.  The body heat transfer is usually a "last resort" effort
for severe hypothermia in remote settings.  It has frequently been used
in wilderness mountain climbing or other expeditions as a lifesaving measure.
Nontheless, it is always appropriate when other techniques are
unavailable or ineffective. So long as the treatment is conducted
appropriately (as noted in another post) in the presence of of other
adults/scouts, and the treatment is obviously necessary, there is
little cause for concern.  Most of all it may save someone's life.

It is somewhat frightening to realize that many (especially new) Scout
leaders, and particularly parents of Scouts are extremely uninformed about
the life threatening dangers of hypothermia (and other facets of trauma and
illness recognition and treatment), and would tend to err on the
side of "avoiding" treatment for fear of legal entanglements.  In point
of fact, they would place themselves in much greater legal peril by
witholding treatment, and subsequently causing the serious injury or
death of  a Scout.

Good Samaritan laws (for the most part, the language varies from State to
State) only protect those individuals who render care voluntarily,
without an expectation or "duty to act" as a part of their job or volunteer
position.  For example, if you are driving down the road and stop at the
scene of an accident, voluntarily, to assist, AND if you render care
according to the "standard of care" under which you are
trained/experienced without negligent acts or omissions, you are given
immunity from litigation should the person you assisted choose to file
 suit against you.

Although anyone may file a lawsuit against you for nearly any reason, the
probability of the suit being successful is negligible if you have acted
in "good faith, and in a reasonable and prudent manner" to assist someone
to the "best of your training and ability." On the other hand, if you are
a Scout leader,(or volunteer firefighter,  volunteer ambulance
technician, or Scout camp staff member et al, whether you get paid or not),
and if you are acting in an "official capacity" at the time,
you still have a "duty to act" and (unless your state laws are written
differently than most) are NOT protected by "good Samaritan laws."

The good news, however, is that there are virtually NO successful
lawsuits against anyone in these categories who provide care
appropriately according to the "standard of care" under which they have
been trained.

In point of fact, far more successful lawsuits have been filed against
those persons who knowingly withheld care of a victim, without a
legitimate reason.  You are much better off trying to do something you
are trained and/or qualified to do  to the best of your knowledge and
ability. Conversely if you try to do something you are not qualified to
do, you may also be at risk, so just maintain your efforts to the
"standard of care" that you have been trained in..no more and no less.

The legal system is very understanding of those who make a good faith
effort even if unsuccesful.
Conversely it is very unforgiving of those who fail to act without good
cause, or of those who act recklessly and negligently.

I would especially say AMEN to the post saying that hypothermia is
largely preventable!.  It is important to remember that little folks
(i.e. young Scouts/children) are far more susceptible to  hypothermia
than older Scouts or adults.  There have been cases in which leaders have
dismissed or ignored initial complaints of being "cold" or chilled by
Scouts as "whining."  In fact, some of those cases resulted in Scouts
suffering mild hypothermia, and had action not been quickly taken, could
have been tragic.  Simple precautions such as not wearing cotton clothing
for any reason, and using adequate synthetic underwear and outer
garments, as well as proper hydration and nutrition go a long way it
preventing a problem.

Sometimes, it is necessary to just inform a Scout that he needs to "put
on his hat" to forestall chilling.. Many times they just miss little things
that can save them from a lot of discomfort.

The other factors are just recognizing when wind-chill is
serious and taking prompt action to remove the source of heat loss.
Most Scouters know, if you become hypothermic yourself, your brain tends not
to function very well, and you make bad decisions, which may be tragic.
Someone who is still in control needs to take control and remove the
person or group from any further exposure, and to reverse the effects of
the wind chill.

Finally, I would strongly encourage anyone who is in a Scout leadership
position, as well as the Scouts themselves, to take a Red Cross or
equivalent training class in first aid and CPR.  If you can get an
experienced instructor, (i.e. someone who has actually worked in the
emergency medical services field as an EMT, Paramedic, Rescue squad,
firefighter, outdoor guide, etc., and has first hand experience, your
class will be greatly enhanced).  The Red Cross has a new class called
"emergency response" and "CPR for the Professional Rescuer" which is
designed for volunteer and professional "first responders."  It is
extremely well designed, and well suited to Scout leaders and older Scouts.

I currently teach this class to Explorers in my high adventure and
emergency management posts, and to Venture crews and Scout leaders in my
district.  They find the training extremely useful, and sufficiently
thorough that they  often assist in teaching future classes. A
few have also become instructors when they turn 17 and are quite good at
teaching their fellow Scouts!  Most of all they are much more aware of the
dangers of a variety of outdoor risk factors and know not only how to treat
them, but more importantly how to avoid them in the first place!

Good Scouting!

Bob Amick, EMT-B, Exploring Training Chair, Longs Peak Council, Boulder, CO

From <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU>  Sat Nov  9 22:37:54 1996
Return-Path: <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU>
Received: from pucc.PRINCETON.EDU (smtpb@pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id WAA29451; Sat, 9 Nov 1996 22:37:54 -0500
Received: from PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU by pucc.PRINCETON.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
   with BSMTP id 0234; Sat, 09 Nov 96 22:34:31 EST
Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4172; Sat, 9 Nov 1996 22:34:30 -0500
Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by
 TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8006; Sat,
 9 Nov 1996 20:38:47 -0600
Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b)
          with NJE id 3453 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Sat, 9 Nov 1996
          20:38:07 -0600
Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail
          V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3452; Fri, 8 Nov 1996 14:20:15 -0600
Received: from reg.seresc.k12.nh.us by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
          with TCP; Fri, 08 Nov 96 14:20:11 CST
Received: from godbout.tiac.net (p15.ts4.lowel.MA.tiac.com [207.60.164.112]) by
          reg.seresc.k12.nh.us (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id PAA21224 for
          <SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU>; Fri, 8 Nov 1996 15:23:02 -0500
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <1.5.4.16.19961104070247.214f8b76@mail.HiWAAY.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-ID:  <32839587.4E12@reg.seresc.k12.nh.us>
Date:         Fri, 8 Nov 1996 15:18:15 -0500
Reply-To: mgodbout@reg.seresc.k12.nh.us
Sender: SCOUTS-L - Youth Groups Discussion List
              <SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU>
From: Marc Godbout <mgodbout@reg.seresc.k12.nh.us>
Subject:      Re: Cold Weather Camping Part 3 - Food, Tips and tricks
To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L <SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU>
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Winter Camping Part 3

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Food:

You need extra calories to keep your body warm, so leave your low-fat
diet at home.  Make sure you have lots of carbos.  Oatmeal for
breakfast and pasta for supper works well.  Eggs and pancakes lose
heat quickly and IMHO taste pretty bad cold, but bacon can be eaten
cold.  If you don’t cook it too crispy then any leftovers (yeah right -=

leftovers of bacon?) can be snacked on during the day.

Lunches could be pepperoni and cheese on crackers.  Peanut butter on
Syrian bread.

Have plenty of snacks available.  Granola bars, chocolate, and trail
mix are great.  Apples and oranges will turn into rocks, no matter
what you keep them in.

I like melting butter in a pan and toasting bagels or english muffins in
the butter.  There’s a lot of energy there.

Have plenty of hot chocolate. This will be drunk any time someone is
in camp.  If you’ve got to have coffee, use decaf.  Caffeine is a
diuretic
and you’ll need all the water you can get.

Make sure everyone has plenty of water.  Dehydration leads to
hypothermia.  But leave your filters at home.  They are pretty much
useless when frozen and you could crack the filter element.   Melt
snow or boil water when you need to refill the bottles.

Cooking meat doesn’t seem to work very well.  It’s hard to keep a big=

frying pan hot enough to effectively brown any hamburger.  If you’ve
got to have meat in the spaghetti sauce, bring pepperoni and throw it
in the sauce when heating that up.

Instant soups will go like crazy.  Use your insulated mug to eat this,
and you won’t need the hot chocolate for this meal/snack.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Other tips and tricks:

To keep boots from freezing up overnight, lie them on their sides
beneath your sleeping bag under your butt with the soles sticking out. 
Put one on each side of you.  There should be enough heat escaping
there to keep the frost out, plus the placement
will help keep you from rolling of your mat.

Keep gloves, socks, and any of tomorrow’s clothes as will comfortably
fit inside the sleeping bag.  Any other clothes, jacket, sweater,
whatever doesn’t fit, should be put under the bag.  It’s much more
comfortable to dress in pre-heated clothes and the added insulation
doesn’t hurt.

Keep at least one water bottle in the sleeping bag, if it will fit and
not
leak. If you can’t, put it under your bag at the knees.  All other wate=
r
bottles that don’t fit under your knees could be put in some of your
extra wool socks.  Also, heat the water up at night before you go to bed
and put the filled bottles in your sleeping bag as you fulfill your
nightly duties.  Then when you get to bed, your bag will actually be
warm.

Don’t forget the nightly duties.  A full bladder requires more heat tha=
n
an empty one, plus getting up at 2:00 AM in sub-zero weather is
absolutely no fun.

Carry and store water bottles upside down.  Ice forms on the top of
bodies of water first, so this helps keep ice from forming around the
mouth.  If you’re not carrying a water bottle, stick it in a spare sock
or
shove it in a snow bank, upside down, of course.  Snow will insulate
better than nothing.

If you’ve got a self-inflating mattress don’t roll it up with the val=
ves
closed.  A frozen mattress valve is real hard to open.

When standing around eating, cooking, or whatever, stand on your
mattress pad.  When sitting, sit on your pad.

Keep active as much as possible.  If you feel  your feet freezing up,
start getting the shakes, or if you see anybody else showing initial
signs of hypothermia - go for a long, brisk walk/jog.  Take the whole
troop with you, because they may be feeling the same way, but are too
=93cool=94 (there’s that pun again) to show it.  Keep going until the s=
igns
go away.

Go for a night hike or play an active game just before you crawl in the
bag. After you get in the bag, take a mouthful of water and eat
something fatty like cookies. This gets the furnace started and helps
keep it going throughout the night.

The standard 3-tub method of doing the dishes just doesn’t work in the
extreme cold. Heat up some water and pour this in individual bowls to
melt the leftover bit and pieces of food.  Soak your utensils in this. 
Then use a paper towel or even a snowball to scrub.  Any cloth dishrag
will freeze.

Bring extra everything.  Stoves and lanterns will fail.  Water bottles
will freeze and crack.  Things, like boys just behave differently in the
cold.

Everyone on the trip should know the signs and treatment of
hypothermia!!!

No cotton!!!!

From <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU>  Sat Nov  9 22:43:04 1996
Return-Path: <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU>
Received: from pucc.PRINCETON.EDU (smtpd@pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id WAA00486; Sat, 9 Nov 1996 22:43:04 -0500
Received: from PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU by pucc.PRINCETON.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
   with BSMTP id 8680; Sat, 09 Nov 96 22:39:09 EST
Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4200; Sat, 9 Nov 1996 22:38:58 -0500
Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by
 TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8042; Sat,
 9 Nov 1996 20:39:45 -0600
Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b)
          with NJE id 3449 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Sat, 9 Nov 1996
          20:39:05 -0600
Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail
          V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3448; Fri, 8 Nov 1996 14:19:19 -0600
Received: from reg.seresc.k12.nh.us by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
          with TCP; Fri, 08 Nov 96 14:19:16 CST
Received: from godbout.tiac.net (p15.ts4.lowel.MA.tiac.com [207.60.164.112]) by
          reg.seresc.k12.nh.us (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id PAA21216 for
          <SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU>; Fri, 8 Nov 1996 15:22:03 -0500
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <1.5.4.16.19961104070247.214f8b76@mail.HiWAAY.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-ID:  <32839546.27B3@reg.seresc.k12.nh.us>
Date:         Fri, 8 Nov 1996 15:17:10 -0500
Reply-To: mgodbout@reg.seresc.k12.nh.us
Sender: SCOUTS-L - Youth Groups Discussion List
              <SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU>
From: Marc Godbout <mgodbout@reg.seresc.k12.nh.us>
Subject:      Re: Cold Weather Camping Part 2 - Other gear
To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L <SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU>
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Winter Camping Part 2

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Other gear:

---------------
Sleeping bag:
 No skimping here.  Down works great, but if it gets wet it will lose
all
insulation value.  For experienced, responsible, older, scouts (and
scouters) this shouldn’t be a problem - just keep it dry.  Plus, down i=
s
the
most compressible material around. But boys will be boys, so I usually
recommend some man-made fiber, such as LiteLoft, which is almost as
compressible as down.  A good bag will be expensive, but many gear
stores will rent them.  Construction is probably more important than
filling.  Things to check for are: a full length draft tube, if quilted
- make
sure he inside seams are offset from outside seams, a full coverage
hood,
mummy construction.  Another thing that helps out is to get a longer bag
than necessary. That way you could stuff things that you’d like to keep=

warm during the night.

I personally use a layered technique, mostly because  I don’t have the
space and money for three different bags.  My inside layer is my poly
top
and bottom with generously thick socks (I get cold feet at night), then
I
get in a vapor barrier made by wrapping a space blanket around myself. 
Then I slip into an acrylic blanket bag my wife sewed up.  I wear a wool
hat and my bag is a +20F-rated down bag.  The major problem with this
is the time it takes to finally get in position.  Without exaggeration,
I
believe that I squirm around for 10 - 15 minutes.  Then again, all that
activity generates heat, so maybe this is a good thing.  This season I
might try one of those emergency mylar bags instead of the space
blanket.  I could buy a vapor barrier liner, but they cost too much.

Another problem was that my system didn’t work so well at -5F.  I was
cold during the night.  Not enough to keep me awake all night, but it
was
very uncomfortable.  I think a thicker acrylic or wool blanket might do
the trick.

---------------
Mattress pad:
This is almost as important as the bag.  The self-inflating or
closed-cell
foam type work pretty well. Stay away from any of those inflatable type,
more suitable as floats in the pool.  These allow air to move around
under you and could actually help cool you off.

I recommend two pads when sleeping on the snow.  More is warmer.

---------------
Tents:
Don’t know much here because I haven’t used one in the winter, yet. 
I’ve been told that the fiberglass poles have a tendency to crack, so
you
might want to stick to aluminum.

We’ve used quinzees (a type of snow-dome), dugloos (dig a hole and
sleep under the stars), snow-kitchens, and scout-camp lean-tos.  Out of
all of these, I think the lean-tos are the coldest.  We strung tarps
around
the bunks to cut down on drafts and the amount of air needing to be
heated.  Whatever you try, bring as many tarps as you can.  Those blue,
PVC, things work pretty well in extreme cold.

---------------
Mess kit:
I use a plastic cereal bowl from the local Name-Your-Favorite-Mart.  Get
something thick, as extreme cold could cause it to crack.  I don’t like
the
metal mess kits because they seem to allow the food to cool too
quickly. 
Also, keep it light colored.  Chances are, you’ll be eating at least on=
e
meal, probably supper, in the dark, and a dark plate/bowl makes food
disappear.

An insulated coffee mug, with lid, works great.  Avoid those metal
cups. 
They transfer too much heat from the hot chocolate directly to the lips.

---------------
Stoves:
Propane and butane have problems in the cold.  They start losing
pressure below freezing and it’s pretty much gone by the time you get t=
o
0F.  We stick with the white gas stoves during winter time.

---------------
Lights:
Lanterns should also be white gas.  I’ve seen batteries die out at
extreme
cold, too.  Candles always work.  Flashlights should be kept on your
person even during the day, because of the battery problem.

From <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU>  Sat Nov  9 22:46:35 1996
Return-Path: <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU>
Received: from server1.capaccess.org (server1.CapAccess.org [207.91.115.5]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id WAA01218; Sat, 9 Nov 1996 22:46:35 -0500
Received: from pucc.PRINCETON.EDU (smtpb@pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by server1.capaccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA81338; Sat, 9 Nov 1996 22:40:12 -0500
Received: from PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU by pucc.PRINCETON.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
   with BSMTP id 0248; Sat, 09 Nov 96 22:42:42 EST
Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4262; Sat, 9 Nov 1996 22:42:41 -0500
Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by
 TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8081; Sat,
 9 Nov 1996 20:40:45 -0600
Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b)
          with NJE id 3443 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Sat, 9 Nov 1996
          20:40:01 -0600
Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail
          V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3442; Fri, 8 Nov 1996 14:18:06 -0600
Received: from reg.seresc.k12.nh.us by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
          with TCP; Fri, 08 Nov 96 14:18:03 CST
Received: from godbout.tiac.net (p15.ts4.lowel.MA.tiac.com [207.60.164.112]) by
          reg.seresc.k12.nh.us (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id PAA21204 for
          <SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU>; Fri, 8 Nov 1996 15:20:56 -0500
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <1.5.4.16.19961104070247.214f8b76@mail.HiWAAY.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-ID:  <3283950D.11BF@reg.seresc.k12.nh.us>
Date:         Fri, 8 Nov 1996 15:16:13 -0500
Reply-To: mgodbout@reg.seresc.k12.nh.us
Sender: SCOUTS-L - Youth Groups Discussion List
              <SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU>
From: Marc Godbout <mgodbout@reg.seresc.k12.nh.us>
Subject:      Re: Cold Weather Camping
To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L <SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU>
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Ron Boyd wrote:
>
> Hello Scouters!
>
> Last year several members of this list posted some excellent ways to pa=
ck,
> clothe,
> and camp in cold weather. Maybe some of them will chime in again this y=
ear.
> It is that time of year again. We had our first frost of the year down =
here
> in Alabama this weekend.
>
> YiS,
>
> Ron Boyd, ASM
> Decatur, AL

Recently there was a post on the list looking for cold-weather camping
ideas.  The following is pretty long and will not apply to everybody,
but
maybe there will be a few pieces someone can use.  At worse, I’m sorry
for cluttering up your mail box.  Also, I had to break it up into 3
sections
so that the listserver could take it.

Up here in NH, 3 - 4 months of the year are spent in a winter
environment.  As I like to camp it was either learn a few tricks to make
it
easier or just read about camping during those months.  I’m also a
Scoutmaster and what follows is pretty much what I try to teach the
boys. 
FWIW - The coldest I’ve camped in is -5F and I’ve done outside
activities as low as -15F. 

Winter camping is a lot of fun, but it presents some subtle dangers.  I
consider it a high adventure activity, but it’s different from rock
climbing, where you experience a relatively short-term thrill.  Winter
camping, if not prepared, is dangerous even when sleeping.  But for
many boys it’s a fun challenge, and a =93cool=94 (pardon the pun) thing=
 to
do.  My son has actually said that he couldn’t wait for summer to be
over
so that he could go on Winter Trek, Daniel Webster Council’s high
adventure program.

Winter Camping Part 1
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Clothes: 
---------------
Head:
Starting with the top, a wool or polypropylene hat.  A good hat is very
important.  Not only because much of the body’s heat is lost through th=
e
head, but also because the body will start shutting down blood flow, and
therefore heat, to the extremities in order to keep the core warm.  A
common saying is, =93Cold feet - put a hat on=94.   This hat will also be=

valuable at night, in the sleeping bag.

Some sort of face shield is needed.  A wool or acrylic scarf, or even a
spare wool sock for those boys who forget the scarf, keeps frostbite
away. 
The nose is an extremity and is real sensitive to cold breezes.

---------------
Torso:
I think just about everybody knows about layering.  We’ve had that
drilled into us since kindergarten. I personally don’t bring a =93winte=
r=94
coat with me at all when winter camping.  My =93system=94 consists of a
medium-weight polypropylene long-sleeve undershirt, a wool sweater, an
insulated flannel shirt (K-Mart deal which luckily is made of all man-
made fibers - no cotton!!!), all topped with a wind-breaking, water
resistant, shell.  Total cost is about $50. 

Most important here is another saying - =93Cotton kills=94.  Cotton has t=
his
annoying habit of holding onto moisture, keeping it close to the skin,
and
thereby losing all insulation value.  Worse yet, by holding it in,
perspiration which would normally drip off the body is now kept close
by, further cooling the body.  This could easily mean the difference
between comfort and hypothermia.  Those waffle-weave, =93thermal=94
undershirts found at dept. stores are almost always 100% or 50% cotton. 
Go to the sports dept. and look for the poly.  Most man-made fibers and
wool will wick moisture away from the skin.  Even when wet, they will
still keep a pretty good amount of insulation. 

A good replacement for the wool sweater might be a Polarguard or
similar fleece top.  I don’t own any of this, mainly because I’ve got
the
sweater already, but those who do swear by it.  It has the added
advantage of being lighter weight, something to consider when
backpacking.

---------------
Hands:
I try and make sure the boys get mittens with long cuffs.  These keep
hands much warmer than gloves.  You can tell them that the fingers help
keep each other warm or the Mr. Wizard explanation that there is much
less surface area to radiate heat.  Either way, mittens are the way to
go. 
The cuffs should extend past the wrist.  Snowmobile mittens work very
well.

I’ve got a pair of =93glomitts=94 which I find fantastic.  These are a =
pair
of
finger-less wool gloves with the finger part of a mitten attached to the
back of the knuckles.  Normally the mitten is over my fingers, but when
it comes time to fiddle with the stove, or even light a match, the
mitten
part flips up and Velcro’s to the back of the glove.  When I need my
fingers to manipulate something, I like to keep as much hand covered as
possible.

Under these (yes, I layer here as well), I wear some thin acrylic knit
gloves.  You can either buy glove liners at some outdoor store or do as
I
do; go to the women’s section of some discount dept. store like
Walmart. 
They have these one-size fits all mini-gloves for around a buck.  I’ve
got
long fingers and these work fine for a fraction of the cost of an
=93official=94
glove liner.  On top of this I’ll wear a pair of waterproof overmitts.

---------------
Legs:
The layering  and no cotton rule works here as well.  I start with my
poly
long johns, put on some wool pants over that and then thin, wind-
breaking, snow-pants over that.  Please keep the kids from bringing
sweatpants.  These almost always cotton and are only warm when inside
that nice, cozy cabin.  Wool pants are hard to find cheaply in kid’s
sizes,
mine are army surplus, so I let the boys substitute poly’s topped with
the
heavier snowpants.  Just make sure they’re not cotton-filled.  I do
allow
the boys to wear cotton briefs or boxers.  This is too personal a
choice.
wear
them and it doesn’t seem to be a problem.

---------------
Feet:
Do I really of to repeat =93no cotton=94 here?  I didn’t think so. For
comfort,
I wear poly sock liners.  Over that would be a vapor barrier.  I’ve use=
d
zip-lock bags (a bit constricting in the toes), bread bags, and plastic
shopping bags.  I might also try those bags that my newspapers come in. 
They’re thin and just the right size.  I don’t know if they’ll hold=
 up,
though.  The reason for the bag is to keep sweat from being absorbed by
the boot’s insulation.  Overnight, moisture in the boot will freeze if
the
boot is not kept warm (more on that later).  I had one boy just last
year
who woke up to find his boots frozen solid.  He could not get his feet
into
them.  We had to thaw them by the fire (this was a Scout camp) before
he could leave his tent.  On top of the bag, I put some thick wool
socks. 

As for boots, your basic dept. store snow boot should do fine, as long
as
they are bought at least one size too big, in order to fit the socks and
bag. 
Fit is very important.  Anything too tight will cut off circulation to
the
toes and be a potential frostbite problem  I like having removable wool
felt liners, but any decent, thick insulation should work.  

I’ve used gaiters on top of my boots and like them very much.  Gaiters
are basically a cordura or maybe leather sleeve which bridges the gap
between boots and pants.  They do a great job keeping snow out of the
boots.

Date:         Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:59:30 -0600
From: "Marc W. Solomon" <m_solomon@ALLI.COM>
Subject:      Re: What does COLD stand for?
X-To:         Jim McMaster <mcmaster@SWENG.STORTEK.COM>
To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L <SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU>
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Overheating.

Or to put it properly:

                  |
                  V

            Keep C lean
         Prevent O verheating
        Dress in L ayers
            Stay D ry

At 02:25 PM 2/3/97 -0700, Jim McMaster wrote:
>Hi...sorry to ask the list, but I am preparing a presentation for my scouts
>tonight about how to dress warm for winter camping.  There is an acronym
>"COLD" I want to include.  It goes (I think):
>
>C  - clean
>O  - ??????
>L  - layers?
>D  - dry?
>
>I lent my fieldbook to a scout, and cannot find it in the handbook.  Could
>someone help me out, please?  Private email is fine.

YIS,

Marc Solomon               Unit Commissioner
m_solomon@alli.com         Sycamore District
mailto:marcsol@aol.com     Blackhawk Area Council (IL)