Title: INTERNET SCOUTING
Author: Michael F. Bowman
Company: Attorney at Law

SCOUTS-L
----------
PHILMONT

Date:         Wed, 31 Jul 1996 16:07:27 -0500
From: "Paul M. Buehrle" <pmbuehrle@EEX.COM>
Subject:      Re: Quick Philmont Question

William Myers wrote:
>
>         Headed to Philmont Sunday Morn... We are on Trek 7, (Mt Phillips,
> Fish Camp, Aberro, Tooth of Time)... Several of the days in the PEAKS
> book mention the possibility of fishing (since much of the trail seems to
> follow the river.)  ... Several of my scouts would like to know if it is
> worth their time to pack a ultra-light reel and collapsible rod...  Are
> there fish in the Rayado?
> Our trek (701N#1) just finished the same itinerary several weeks ago.  Althoug
h we
did not fish or carry gear, we observed trout in the Rayado at Porcupine.  Our s
ister
trek, which followed a nearby itinerary, caught about 18 trout near Apache Sprin
gs on the
tributary which joins the Rayado at Fish Camp.

>         Any other last minute tid-bits of advice for this particular trek
> are always welcome by me...
> When you camp at Lambert's Mine, be sure to take a side hike to Cypher's Mine.
  The
mine tour (and coffee) is well worth the hike and the "Stomp" in the evening was
 the best
campfire we had all trek!!  The trail from Cypher's Mine to Thunder Ridge is a n
ewer 8%
grade trail (easy), but the trail from Thunder Ridge to the top of Mt. Phillips
is tough.  (Be sure to "catapiller" this segment.)  The program at Clear Creek i
s well
worth a stop on a beautiful hike down the Rayado to Porcupine.

Our boys enjoyed the layover at Beaubien, but they did not enjoy the campfire as
 well as
they enjoyed Cypher,s or Uracca.  The hike from Fish Camp to Abreu was very plea
sant, but
the hike up and over Uracca mesa is steep and hazardous (sprains).  We found the
 route from
Uracca to Miner's Park via Bear Caves and Crater Lake to be good grades the enti
re way with
a minimum of 4-wheel drive roads.  Finally, the trail from Miner's Park to Schaf
fer's Peak
is a new 8% grade trail which our guys found to be much easier than they feared,
 but the
loose rocks along Tooth Ridge are real ankle turners.  We all had a terrific tre
k with no
blisters or illness and the boys all had a great time.  Hope you have the same!

        Paul Buehrle
        Troop 890
        Circle Ten Council
        Dallas, Texas

Date:         Wed, 31 Jul 1996 23:09:56 -0700
From: Mike Montoya <mmm@IMS.MARIPOSA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Quick Philmont Question
To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L <SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU>

At 02:44 PM 7/31/96 -0500, you wrote:
>
>        Any other last minute tid-bits of advice for this particular trek
>are always welcome by me...
>
We were on a different trek, but...

Generally speaking, by the beginning of August, the weather settles into a
rain every afternoon for an hour or two starting about 2 or so pattern.  At
least that's what I remember.

Also, when we were there a couple of weeks ago, some of the creeks and
springs where there is normally water were dry....  Pay close attention at
your trek orientation to water info and then plan on it it being drier than
they indicate.  We were told about water being available at two different
spots and then it wasn't.  Take plenty of large water containers and carry
as much as you can.  We ran into two groups (scouts on side trips) on our
trek that were out of water.

Mike

-----------------------------------------------------
Mike Montoya, ASM, Troop 94          mmm@yosemite.net
     http://www.yosemite.net/mariposa/clubs/t94/
           http://home.yosemite.net/~mmm/
   "I used to be ...Faster, Lighter, & Less Gray!"

Date:         Wed, 14 Aug 1996 11:11:56 -0400
From: Pat Meehan <alf@KGN.IBM.COM>
Subject:      Philmont Trek '96
To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L <SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU>

Well, finally getting around to being able to have time to report on the
trip ... Got back in town last weds. (8/7) ... Got to work that monday and
had over 700 pieces of mail ... mostly work, some social...

Anyway ... Philmont was absolutely fantastic... The views, the wildlife,
the entire experience... the people I met on the trail and at the
Advisors Coffee time... Some from the internet world.

Out trip out to NM, included stops at Air Force Academy, Olympic Training
Center, Flying 'W' Ranch, Pike's Peak, Koshare Indian Museum - btw, thank
you Joe Clay for hosting us and allowing us to visit the museam and
the movies... You were a great Host!,  We also visited Bent's Fort and
ultimately after leaving Philmont we did a rafting trip on the Arkansas
River out of Canon City.
As for Philmont - what can I say... we had a great time.  Our trek took us
through the north country into the central part...

We started at Anasasi for Ranger Training (where we were taught about bears,
proper food prep, water purification etc. etc. etc..) then onto
Indian Writings, then to Ponil where we did Horseback riding and the
boys enjoyed the canteena while advisors conversed about this and
that.  Our next 3-4 days would be our toughest... On to Paublano Camp
where we did Spar Pole Climbing...not as easy as it looks and ulitimately
to Puablano Ruins Camp where we stayed for the night.  Next we went to
French Henry Mines where we Panned for Gold, did some Black Smithing and
visited a Mine... Same day on into and 'UP UP UP' to Copper Park where we
stayed for 2 days... We did a 'side-hike' up and over Baldy Mtn (North
side and down south Side to Baldy Town... ) Fantastic views from atop
of Baldy... we got up there early (9:20am and left around 11ish... Had
lunch up there... As we descended the clouds rolled in, rain and hail began.
At Baldy town we 'woofed' down a couple of candy bars and relaxed then
back up the hill to copper Park... Got back around 2:30... and relaxed the
rest of that day... Next onto Head-of-Dean where we did our Conservation
Project (cut down, thinned out the forest...) and also did the Challenge
Course as the program.  Then on to New Dean (no program, just camped) and
then to Dean Cow where we did Rock Climbing and Repelling... The boys enjoyed
that.  After that we went to Harlan, where we did Trap Shooting (Shotgun)..and
Burro Racing... That was to be our last night on the trail, so the boys
cooked up all their desserts... (they had 4)... Harlan and Vaca Camp were hit
by the Tornado that occurred the 'first' day we were in Base Camp... We
to were standing by the Medical building watching this monster roll through
and devastate Cimaron... Our Ranger was one of the "Search and Rescue" members
who went into Cimaron to help... Said it was terrible, a mess...
We left Harlan and headed for Webster Lake which was our pickup point... We
sat by the side of the road, right under the Tooth Ridge... So close, we
were seriously thinking about 'bushwhacking it'... but decided it wouldn't
be the right thing to do..
That afternoon, we all went into Cimaron to a) check out the devastation and
b) to get us a 'BIIIIIIIG' ice cream treat... mmmmmm!

Well that's about it, not too much detail, but enough to maybe entice
those who haven't gone and are thinking about it... an experience not to
be forgotten... I'm planning on going back in 2000...

YiS - pat

--
     _/_/      _/        _/_/_/_/    _/  | Pat Meehan (WWW)
    _/  _/     _/        _/          _/  | email: alf@melmac.kgn.ibm.com
   _/    _/    _/        _/_/_/      _/  | ext email: alf@kgn.ibm.com
  _/_/_/_/_/   _/        _/              | Phone:(914) 433-7916
 _/        _/  _/_/_/_/  _/          _/  | fax:(914) 433-8363

Date:         Tue, 1 Apr 1997 16:31:55 -0500
From: Mike Walton <blkeagle@DYNASTY.NET>
Subject:      Re: Philmont

Mike Audy asked about Philmont, and I'm surprised that someone
hasn't answered him and the 22 others that are waiting for the
answer here!! *grinning*

You have the answer one-quarter of the way answered:

>One question, though:  What is Philmont?
>
>>From comments, it appears to be a camp? with lots of possible
> adventurous hikes?
>
>How close am I?
>
>Can someone let me know more, such as location, cost, approximate
> times, etc.?

Waite Phillips (of Phillips Petroleum fame --Phillips 66) donated
the initial land at the foot of one of the offshoots of the Rocky
Mountains in New Mexico to the Boy Scouts of America well over 50
years ago.  The BSA has been developing that land and more land
that it has bought as the premiere outdoor adventure ("high
adventure") base in the United States.  Philmont Scout Ranch.

Philmont is a longterm camp, with several options that others here
can tell you more about.  The lenghts of the camps range from ten
days to three weeks...most are 12 days, more or less.  Groups come
to Philmont and get either a "customed-designed trail plan" or the
standard trail plan.

Philmont also has nearby a regular summer camp operation, which
operates for the local Council which the national camp is located
within.  It's summer camp operation not unlike any other local
Council's summer camp operation.

Philmont is also one of the three "national test beds" for the
BSA's supply equipment and the people using them.  A Junior Leader
Training Camp is held there each summer, whereby the BSA invites
Senior Patrol Leaders and other youth leaders from local Councils
to spend eight days learning leadership skills that they take back
and teach their fellow Scouts.  At the same time, new uniforms,
hats, and equipment are introduced to them, field tested and
evaluated.

The same thing takes place for the many adults that come to
Philmont's National Training Center, which is located near the base
camp of the facility.  There, like the Scouts, Scouters receive
training and coaching from this nation's "best and brightest"
volunteers and professionals, keyed to their role within the
Scouting program in America and how they can turn around and train
their counterparts in their local Council and in many cases, in
adjacent ones.  New programs, techniques and training courses are
"field tested" on them first, fine-tuned to "play in Peoria" or
anywhere else.  Many of the Scouters that attend those courses,
Mike, tell us when they come back that many times, thanks to THIS
list and the people here, they are well-ahead of their peers and
use and point to this resource as a good "pre-Philmont experience".

But it's NOTHING like Philmont.  Not even close.

Philmont is also the site where some national meetings and
committee seminars take place, because it's cheaper to do it there
than just about any other place...the BSA owns and operates it all.
Finally, Philmont is the home to a national wildlife and outdoors
museum which is open to the public.  The resources at the museum
are used by college students and others in the USA and around the
world.

The costs associated with Philmont is steep compared to other
camps. There's also a difference between going to Philmont and the
other two outdoor adventure bases, and between going to Philmont
and going to summer camp somewhere.  The Volunteer Training Center
and the Junior Leader Training Course are all by national invite.
There is also a Wood Badge course that is held there on some years,
but again, it's by invite only.

Philmont is a great place to take your family, your unit, yourself.
I have been there three times, but never to take the trail....
It's a SUPER place to go, and an excellent example of the very best
of the BSA's program and support!

Personally, I don't see why we don't have the Jamboree there....

I'm hoping that others can chime in on the particulars that I've
left out!!

Settummanque!

Date:         Tue, 1 Apr 1997 21:03:02 -0600
From: golden cliff <c60clg1@CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: What is Philmont?

Scouting paradise...

I have been lucky enough to have experienced Philmont on 9 occasions, 6 were
backpacking and 3 were cavalcade treks.

Explaining Philmont in a short note is very difficult.

It is a high adventure base and training center operated by the national
council of the Boy Scouts of America located near Cimarron, New Mexico.

The two main Scout programs are backpacking expeditions and horseback
cavalcades.  There are some other programs as well, but I'm not going to try
to cover everything.

The backpacking expeditions are 12 day programs where Scouts backpack
throughout a beautiful section of the Sangre de Christo mountains, of
which Philmont owns about 137,000 acres of Scouting heaven.  There also
are tens of thousands of additional acres of Kit Carson National Forest
land under use as well (Valle Vidal).

The horseback cavalcades are 8 day programs where Scouts ride horseback
through the same New Mexico countryside.  At the end of their trail ride
they compete with another cavalcade crew in an equestrian gymkhana, one of
many highlights of the cavalcade program.

Both cavalcades and expedition crews take part in exciting programs as
they overnight at staffed campsites along the trail.  Off the top of my
head some of the programs include...  adobe casa, rock climbing &
rapelling, burro racing, black powder, fur trade, western lore, C.O.P.E.,
gold panning & mining, environmental education, Jicarilla Apache life,
campfire programs, etc, etc.

There are also trail camps where the backpacking crews can just lay back
and enjoy their surroundings.

It is a great journey of adventure, personal growth, and teamwork, as
the crews make their way through the 50-100 mile itinerary they have
selected for themselves.

The 1998 reservations day for backpacking crews will be Monday April 7th
for telephone reservations, (I'm sorry I don't have the telephone number
handy -- that's next Monday folks)

For cavalcades it will be January 1998 for the 1999 camping season.  There
are only 28 slots for cavalcade crews each year.  It's tough to get one!

Backpacking crews range from 4-12 persons, while cavalcade crews range
from 10-15 persons.  The 1995 fees were $300/backpacking and $350/cavalcade.
They are slightly higher for 1997.

For more information via the Internet check out the following website...

http://www.umr.edu/~truemoer/Philmont.html

There are about 15-20 Philmont links listed on that page.  You can also
visit Troop 24 Berkely for their Philmont links, and the US Scouting
Service Project.

I was invited again this year to the Philmont Training Center, but I
again had to decline the invitation (not enough time).  Someday I hope to
attend a training session at Philmont.  They have an excellent reputation
for the finest Scouting training classes in the nation.  Hopefully
someday I'll make it.  This summer I came close.

There is a dedication plaque at Philmont with words by Waite Phillips, the
Oklahoma oilman that donated most of Philmont.  Among those words on the
plaque he said he wanted Philmont to instill in youth the virtues of the
pioneers, that of-- Faith, Self Reliance, Integrity, and Freedom.

At Philmont you can be inspired by the accomplishments of your boys by
day, and at night be inspired by the beauty of an expansive star filled
New Mexico sky.

That's a quick sketch of Philmont.

YIS, Cliff Golden
     Scoutmaster Troop 33; DeKalb, Illinois
     Three Fires Council BSA

Date:         Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:05:39 -0700
Reply-To: WILLIAMM@ZIAVMS.ENMU.EDU
Subject:      Re: Philmont

I hate to correct the inimitable Mike Walton regarding Philmont,
where his description was 99% correct, but there were three small
errors.

Waite Phillips was not an owner/founder of Phillips 66 (his
brothers were).  He did make his money in oil in Oklahoma though.

Philmont does not run a Boy Scout summer camp for the Great
Southwest Council (where it is located), they have their own camp
near Chimayo, NM.  Philmont does have a program for Scout age
boys who come to the Training Center with their parents.

Philmont usually hosts one to three local council Wood Badge
training courses each summer at the Zastro Camp, the historic
Wood Badge training site (since Wood Badge 8 in 1949 or 1950).
This year the only course is hosted by Conquistador Council (and
six other councils) from August 16-23.  While all Wood Badge is
by invitation, if your local council's course does not fit your
needs, you can come to the Philmont course with your local Scout
Executive's approval.  Since I happen to be serving on this
year's course, I can explain more details for those who may be
interested in 1997 or 1998.

In Scouting,
    __
____'/____  George Crowl
VV  / \ UU  AA, X226
   /318\    Cncl Tng Chmn
  / 402 \   Wood Badge CD
 /W-CS-38\  Double Eagle & Bear
/ ||| ||| \ Clovis, NM
   |

Date:         Tue, 1 Apr 1997 16:40:22 -0700
From: Cyndi Castro <ccastro@UTEP.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Philmont trivia

<snip> <from Mike Walton>
>Waite Phillips (of Phillips Petroleum fame --Phillips 66) donated
>the initial land at the foot of one of the offshoots of the Rocky
>Mountains in New Mexico to the Boy Scouts of America well over 50
>years ago.  The BSA has been developing that land and more land
>that it has bought as the premiere outdoor adventure ("high
>adventure") base in the United States.  Philmont Scout Ranch.
<snip>

A bit of trivia, it was originally called Philturn before it became
Philmont. How do I know, my dad, then a poor youth, was given the
opportunity to work there back in the 40's and his first to patches say
Philturn, the last two say Philmont. Also, he has a 1945 map and some post
cards of Philturn/Philmont. When I showed these to some of the scouters
here, a comments were so that is what ___  originally looked like. I guess
my husband, son and I are lucky, we will finally be able to see Philmont (or
at least a portion of it) next week, our OA section is being being held there.

Cyndi Castro
Yucca Council
Gila Lodge #378
El Paso, TX
I used to be a Bobwhite.....

Date:         Thu, 3 Apr 1997 08:30:01 -0600
From: Warren Williams <warrenw@FELIX.TECLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Philmont

Not to be picky, I just thought I'd add a little to the discussion
as Mike Walton and George Crowl, in discussing Philmont and Philmont
history wrote:

> Waite Phillips was not an owner/founder of Phillips 66 (his
> brothers were).  He did make his money in oil in Oklahoma though.

However, Waite did get his start in the oil business through the
company started by two of his brothers, Frank and L.E., the Phillips
Petroleum Company (Phillips 66). He then started his own company,
the Waite Phillips Oil Company, through which he made the bulk of the
money he used to purchase the land for the Philmont Ranch.

> ...Philturn Scout Ranch, the original name for Philmont...

The original name was Philturn Rocky Mountain Scout Camp, and for
those who know Philmont, was based around Ponil. Phil- for Waite
Phillips, and -turn for the good turn he did for Scouting.

> ...Philmont does have a program for Scout age boys who come to the
> Training Center with their parents...
>
> ...Its called Rayado Men (??)...

The program for children of training center participants is the
Mountain Trek (aka "Mountain Men/Mountain Women" program), which is
a 5-day trek.

Rayado (Men and Women) is a 20-day wilderness leadership program
(another bit of trivia; the program started as "Kit Carson Men", and
was originally only 14 days).

Both of these programs are limited to 20-year-olds and younger. The
adult leadership is provided by Philmont. Two other "individual"
programs are:

Trail Crew--a great deal; there's no charge for this one. Work for
two weeks (roughly), then your trail crew designs its own trek. At
28 days, it's the longest program at Philmont.

OA Trail Crew--a "hybrid" of the trail crew program, sponsored by
the National Order of the Arrow Committee; a shorter version; only
two weeks. The cost is only $100. It's in its third year now, the
project is a new trail up to Vaca Camp, and it's run by several of
the OA's national leaders.
--
Warren Williams <warrenw@felix.teclink.net>
http://oscar.teclink.net/~warrenw/
Jackson, Mississippi USA

Date:         Mon, 12 May 1997 09:12:24 -0600
From: George Crowl <WILLIAMM@ZIAVMS.ENMU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Philmont Questions

George Paccerelli:

I have good news and bad news:

Philmont does not usually have a place for on site overnight
camping.  Depending on space available, they might put you up in
"Tent City" for about $2 per night per person, but do not depend
on it.  Not only that, but Tent City is noisy!  Inquire at the
Welcome Center.  However, about 10 - 15 miles away, there are
campsites in Cimmaron Canyon west of Cimmaron, NM on the US
highway.

On the good side, Philmont has several attractions which are open
to visitors and well worth the visit.  They are free.  I
recommend you wear uniform, no one will even ask if you are a
visitor, but it is not necessary.

The Philmont trading post is normally open about 12 hours a day.
Lots of Philmont specific souveniers, and a very good stock of
general Scouting stuff.

The Philmont (Seton) Museum has changing displays of Western
materials, Indian history, Seton paintings, etc., etc.  I cannot
predict what will be on display this summer.  It also has a good
library of older Scouting and Western/Indian material.

The Villa has tours starting about every 15-30 minutes.  This
magnificant old mansion tour gives an idea of Waite Phillips
interests and how the gift of Philmont came about.  Inquire at
the Welcome Center for a reservation.

Rayado (about 7 miles south) has a good re-creation museum of how
it looked when Kit Carson lived there, usually including a
working blacksmith shop, guided tours of the hacienda, etc.

It might be fun to go to either the opening or closing campfire
(there is one of each every night).

There is also a museum in town which has many displays of local
history, the "Colfax County War," the gold mines at Baldy, the
Beaubien Land Grant (which Philmont was a part of), etc.  Also,
the St. James Hotel is a relic of the gold mining days, nicely
restored, but a bit expensive to eat at.

Hope this helps.  Philmont is normally quite helpful and
friendly.

In Scouting,
    __
____'/____  George Crowl
VV  / \ UU  AA, X226
   /318\    Cncl Tng Chmn
  / 402 \   Wood Badge CD
 /W-CS-38\  Double Eagle & Bear
/ ||| ||| \ Clovis, NM
   |

Date:    Sat, 10 May 1997 09:28:40 -0800
From:    paccerelli <paccerelli@TRIAX.COM>
Subject: Re: Philmont Questions

Hello out there, need your help once more. One of our ASM & 2
Scouts
will be passing by Raton, NM this Summer & would like to know if
Philmont allows on site overnite camping or even drop in visitors
buying at their Scout Shop?

Thank you. George A. Paccerelli, BSRT Commish, Stevens District,
INWC-WA&ID, CM Trps 902, 904, & 921. "I use to be an Antelope"

Date:         Fri, 30 May 1997 14:58:01 -0700
From: Earl Needham <needhame@3LEFTIES.COM>
Subject:      Re: Philmont Information

        I've been on only one trek, 721-O 1994, so others may have different
answers.  However...

>  From: Fred Smith <Fred_Smith/FASTTAX@CLR.COM>, on 5/30/97 12:30 PM:
>  1. Philmont furnishes trail tents or a crew may bring their own. What kind
>  of tent do they furnish? Are they in good repair? How do they perform in
>  wet weather? How much do they weigh?

        The tents are 2-man Philmont tents, like in the BSA catalog.  Most of
them are new every year or every other year, and they work well.  In wet
weather, they are like any other non-nylon tent -- don't touch teh material and
you'll stay dry.  I don't remember exactly what the weight was -- certainly not
more than 4 to 6 pounds, if that.  We split up the tent with one individual
carrying the poles and the other the material.

>  2. Philmont furnishes a crew dinning fly? Is it worth carrying?  Did you
>  use it?

        It's definitely worth carrying, especially if (I mean WHEN) it rains at
supper time.  Our ranger showed us a different way to put it up.  The sides
were staked down on the ground, and the poles were only about half up.  This
prevented the wind from blowing the fly away or apart.

>  3. What kind of trail food is furnished?

        Depends on the year.  Some years, they furnish Pemmican bars, sometimes
they furnish PowerBars.  Lunch is usually very simple, like crackers and
squeeze cheese or similar.

>  4. Are there electrical outlets anywhere for charging VideoCam batteries?
>  (I know, this may seem like wilderness essential equipment, but, it sure
>  would be nice to document our trip.)

        You really want to carry that?  It sure will be heavy at 8500 feet+
elevation!  But, to answer your question, most of the staffed camps have
electricity available.

>  5. Have any of your crew members had high blood pressure problems? Philmont
>  seems very concerned about it. Has the camp doctor kept anyone off the
>  trail?

        This didn't affect us.

>  6. Are the staffed camp programs crowded? How can we make the most of the
>  programs?

        There was only one time where we couldn't take part in the activities,
and that was because we got in a bit later than we expected.  Most of the time,
it isn't a problem.

>  7. Which do you recommend: rain suits or ponchos?

        This is an individual choice, but I prefer a rain suit and a pack cover
instead of a poncho.  My experience with a poncho in the wind is that it's
worse than useless.

>  8. What would you do differently if you had the opportunity to go again?

        I'd let the Scouts have more of the responsibility than I did.  I took
my own stove, etc.  I'd still do that, but I'd let one of them take care of it.

Earl Needham, KD5XB
Clovis, NM
Wood Badge at Philmont!  http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/7582/     ICQ
#925486
KD5XB@AMSAT.ORG
Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia, Pi Chi '76