Title: INTERNET SCOUTING
Author: Michael F. Bowman
Company: Attorney at Law

SCOUTS-L
----------
PROBLEM SCOUTS

Date:         Thu, 2 May 1996 10:48:00 EST
From: Steve Robinson <0006155173@MCIMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: How to Help Anti-Social Scout

>"I don't know what to do.  I'll just watch.  I don't want to learn." were
>his responses.  Earlier he had been wandering the school instead of being

>"11 and 12 year old league but I play like a 5 year old.  I'm no good at
>baseball."
>
>slower at my coaxing.  "I'm not good at getting places.  I like poking
>along." I asked him to talk louder and more clearly because if he mumbles
>people will start to ignore him.  "I like to mumble and people ignore me
>anyway."  On top of mumbling he'll turn his back and wander away in
>
>Later I heard the Scout say to himself "I was the only funny one up there."

It appears to me that the boy is just repeating comments what he has
heard from others, perhaps his parents. Sometimes people will live up
to the comments continually made to them by others, especially parents.

Baden-Powell wrote in his book, "Aids to Scoutmastership":

"Thirdly, the business of the Scoutmaster - and a very interesting one
it is - is to draw out each boy and find out what is in him, and then
to catch hold of the good and develop it to the exclusion of the bad.
There is five per cent of good even in the worst character. The sport
is to find it, and then to develop it on to an 80 or 90 per cent
basis. This is education instead of instruction of the young mind."

"THE FIRST STEP towards success in training your boy is to know
something about boys in general and then about this boy in particular."

"As I have said, the first step to success is to know your boy, but the
second step is to know his home. It is only when you know what his
environment is when he is away from the Scouts that you can really
tell what influences to bring to bear upon him."

"Where the sympathy and support of the boy's parents are secured, where
the parents have been brought into a mutual partnership with a fuller
interest in the working of the Troop and the aim of the Movement, the
task of the Scoutmaster becomes proportionately light."

"Responsiveness. - When a boy finds somebody who takes an interest in
him he responds and follows where he is led, and it is here that
hero-worship comes in as a great force for helping the Scoutmaster."

IMO that is where to start, talk to his parents and get a sense of how
they are. Maybe just have a meeting with them to explain how your
troop operates and how you need their support. I don't think I would
immediately bring up these problems, for the boy may be punished for
his actions. Once you feel you have a trusting relationship with them,
then perhaps ask general-type questions about his behavior at school,
etc. All the time letting the parents know of your concern for the
boy. It may not work, the parents may not let you "in". But perhaps
you will have success and the parents may not be aware of the
situation and want to help.

Maybe ask his mom/dad to come along one campout just to help out, in
order to observe their behavior around him, and vice-versa, as well as
to see if his behavior changes.

Talk to his Webelos Den Leader and ask if he acted the same way, and
perhaps some things he/she did to help with the situation. Try to focus
on the things he does do well.

I won't tell you it will be easy, but your influence will make a
difference in him for the rest of his life, just like in the rest of
the boys of the troop.

Hope this helps!

YiS,
Steve Robinson
SM, Troop 1133
Plano, TX

 
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 01:42:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Michael F. Bowman" <mfbowman@CapAccess.org>
To: SCOUTS-L - Youth Groups Discussion List <SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU>
Subject: Re: behavior problems kids and parent

Lauri,

The situation you describe is a sad one.  From what I can tell you have 
about five boys that would like to be Scouts, two who for sure would 
like not to be and two who are tending to follow the lead of the two 
disruptive Scouts.  This is a situation that does not have to continue 
for you.  Here are two options that you may want to consider.

1.  Remember that the chartering organization owns the Troop and has 
decided to use the Scouting program for youth it wishes to serve. Your 
Council will want very much to keep this chartered partner, probably more 
than it will want to deal with a Scouter that is causing problems. Talks 
with the chartered organization and see what they think about the situation.
They are responsible to see that the unit has good leadership, etc. They 
may decide that a change is in order and decide that the disruptive ones 
need not be reregistered with the unit and give help to get the remainder 
of the unit growing again.  You can also talk with your Council and/or 
District Commissioner and Professional staff about the UC. Although there 
is no rule against a UC having children in a unit he/she serves, it does 
tend to create some conflicts of interest.  Perhaps someone a little 
higher up the chain can set things right and get you some help.

2.  If you don't think to much of the chances of recovering the unit, or 
it is far too much effort for what it is worth, don't hesitate to move to 
another Scout Troop in your area that has a good program.  Your son and 
the boys that want to be Scouts deserve to have a Troop that delivers the 
promise of Scouting.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with moving a 
Scout to another Troop to give him all of the opportunities of a rich 
Scouting program.  In my own case, I moved my son to a different Troop 
about three years ago, when the one he was in wasn't providing a program 
and wasn't willing to change.  A number of other Scouts moved too and that 
provided the necessary wake up call to get the chartered organization and 
others involved to make changes.  Afterward the unit got new leadership 
and developed good programs.  Meanwhile my son was able to get a good 
Scouting experience, while I was working on changes that took a long time.

Your son is only going to be interested for so long before this bad 
environment makes him decide he doesn't want to particpate.  Before that 
happens a change is needed.  Do what is right for your son first and 
foremost, even if that means a move.  The other parents of interested 
Scouts may follow suit.  The rump unit that is left probably will come 
close enough to failing that it will get the District's attention and 
cause changes to take place that way.  As a commissioner the last thing 
I'd want to see is a unit fold, but on the other hand, our primary 
objective is to give each Scout a program that is fun and that promotes 
character development, citizenship, and fitness.  Your Troop's program 
sounds like it is a far cry from that.  It needs emergency attention and 
quick action or you need to move to a unit that can provide a program 
that fosters growth and development.

If you do leave, make sure your District Commissioner and District 
Executive know why you are leaving so that they can take the necessary 
steps to try and fix the problems.  

Speaking Only for Myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman
a/k/a Professor Beaver (WB), ASTA #2566, OA Vigil Honor '71, Eagle
Scout '67, Serving as Deputy District Commissioner for Training,
G.W.Dist., Nat. Capital Area Council, BSA - mfbowman@capaccess.org

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 08:47:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Michael F. Bowman" <mfbowman@CapAccess.org>
To: Ron Boyd <rdboyd@HIWAAY.NET>
Subject: Re: Scouter Leaders' Liability

Ron,

You related that you have a Scout who tried to run away from you at a 
camporee and that he has a negative attitude; e.g., told you that he 
hated Scouting then, but now wants to go to camp.  As to liability you 
are covered for him the same as for any other Scout.  And if you have 
concerns about what this means, it is probably best to have a chat with 
your District Executive or Scout Executive to find out more.  I don't 
think that liability is the real issue here, so much as the safety of 
this Scout.

From your posting it is hard to know much about the Scout. Is he apt to 
be a danger to himself or another Scout? Is he likely to run away again? 
What is the situation with his parents? Are they forcing him to go to 
camp to get rid of him for a week during the Summer? Is he trying to go 
to camp because he really wants to go, with maybe parents who could care 
less or are not supportive? Are there problems at home?  Would it help, 
if one of his parents came to camp with him?

It may well be that this Scout needs the opportunity to grow at camp more 
than any of your other Scouts.  That doesn't of course mean that it will 
be easy to have him and will really challenge you, if he does go.

Before answering the question, I would encourage you to talk to the Scout 
and find out what he is interested in, what he likes, what excites him. 
What does he think about the Troop? What does he expect out of camp? How 
does he plan to handle himself? Maybe you could work out an understanding 
with what is expected - perhaps a contract.

You should also learn a little more about the home situation and talk 
with the parents privately about your concerns.  This will probably give 
you some insights to both how the family situation is and maybe about why 
the Scout has a negative attitude.

After learning a bit more you can make a better assessment of whether 
taking this Scout is going to be good for him and weigh the effect of 
taking him  versus the effect it may have on the other Scouts.  

There is no rule that you have to take him to camp.  However, if you can 
do so, it may well be the opportunity he needs badly to grow.  On the 
other hand, if he would be such a disruption that his presence would ruin 
the experience of the other Scouts, it may be that you have to remember 
that these Scouts deserve the best experience we can give too.  

In situations like this there are no easy answers.  Don't be afraid to 
talk about this with other leaders and your commissioner.  Use the 
information you gather and the ideas to come to a decision that works 
best for the situation you have.  Good luck.

Speaking Only for Myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman
a/k/a Professor Beaver (WB), ASTA #2566, OA Vigil Honor '71, Eagle
Scout '67, Serving as Deputy District Commissioner for Training,
G.W.Dist., Nat. Capital Area Council, BSA - mfbowman@capaccess.org

Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 11:48:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Michael F. Bowman" <mfbowman@CapAccess.org>
To: SCOUTS-L - Youth Groups Discussion List <SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU>
cc: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L <SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU>
Subject: Re: discipline problems

Bob,

Generally when I hear someone excuse egregious conduct with "boys will be 
boys" I tend to believe that is their way of saying they don't want to be 
bothered or involved with the hope that ignoring a problem will make it 
go away.  Usually it doesn't.

Without knowing what the bad conduct was, it is hard to measure what 
would be an appropriate response.  It does, however, sound like talking 
about the conduct was not all that fruitful at camp.  If they didn't 
get the message after three conferences, I'm not sure another one will do 
much more.  

Consider trying a two-pronged response:

1.  Evaluate your program and whether it provides ample challenges to 
hold the interest of these boys.  What are they interested in doing 
beside raising a bit of the devil?  What would really get them excited 
enough to want to participate. They may be bored and simply making their 
own fun at the expense of others.  Do you have a venture program? Can 
they work with a venture crew in another Troop, if you don't have one.

2.  Evaluate the chances of a favorable parent response.  If you think 
the parents will be supportive; e.g., aren't part of the problem, enlist 
them in the solution process.  Meet with them and work out a plan to 
resolve the conduct.  You might require that a parent attend any outing 
the boy attends for a period of time and that the boy sign a conduct 
contract also signed by his parents.  If the parents are not apt to be 
supportive and this process would be futile, then your committee should 
simply tell them what the Troop policies are on conduct, let them know 
they have had a warning, and act on the next case of misconduct with the 
remedial response appropriate to the misconduct; e.g., expulsion, 
suspension, parent required, service project required, etc.

If nothing is done to change things the other Scouts in the Troop won't 
ignore the situation - they will be learning lessons too.  And if they 
learn that misconduct is tolerated, what is to stop them from joining in 
the fun.  And while your unit needs to react, the reaction needs to be 
even handed and fair after some self-evaluation; e.g., what can we do to 
challenge these Scouts to be the best they can.

Speaking Only for Myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman
a/k/a Professor Beaver (WB), ASTA #2566, OA Vigil Honor '71, Eagle
Scout '67, Serving as Deputy District Commissioner for Training,
G.W.Dist., Nat. Capital Area Council, BSA - mfbowman@capaccess.org

Date:         Tue, 6 Aug 1996 19:33:39 -0500
From: golden cliff <c60clg1@CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Who should go to Scout Camp?

Chris, you pose a very good question.

I personally hate to give up on a boy.  The "problem boys" are the ones
that most need the Scouting program.  On the other hand, if their actions
threaten the safety of others, or destroy the quality of program for
others, we have to consider the benefit of the troop as a whole.

I do not have a patent answer for this, and I do not believe one exists.
I think one must examine each situation on its own merit.  Individuals
differ and so does each unique situation.

One way to deal with it is to have a heart to heart with the boy in a
conference, another with his parents, another with all three.  Give him
some tangible expectations and discuss why they are important.  Explain
the situation from your viewpoint and ask him to explain it from his.
Sincerely listen to what he has to say.  There needs to be a real
committment from all parties to work out a successful conclusion to the
problem.

Work with him as long as you can.  When the time comes that you've done
everything you possibly can, work a little longer.  There may come a point
when you have to say goodby to the boy for the sake of the group.  You'll
know when that time comes.

I hate giving up on a boy.  It really hurts me to do that.  I work as long
as I can, and try to believe in them and look for their best
characteristics.  Often they will turn around and improve.  Sometimes the
right type of positive encouragement can make a world of difference.

I don't believe in the concept of a "bad boy".  I believe in the concept
of a "good boy struggling with bad problems".  If you can help
the boy identify and overcome his problems, what you are left with is that
good boy.  It's often amazing what time and patience can do.

I've been a Scoutmaster for nearly 20 years and have worked with
hundreds of boys, I've turned only 3 away from the program.  Each one I
felt was necessary.  I didn't enjoy it, but I don't regret having done it
either.  In those cases, it needed to be done.

Realistically, you can't save every boy.  You can try, but they have to
try too.  If you do decide to disharge a boy from the troop, then have
an "exit interview" with him.  Explain why he is no longer part of the
program.  Be honest with him about his good and bad points.  Wish him
well.  Remember he is young and still learning.  Try to make it a lesson
that might somehow help him later in life.

It's not pleasant, but it can be a growing experience.

Discharging a boy is the last resort.  Look for every possible
alternative.  We are here to develop character, citizenship, and fitness
in young people.  They won't all start out as perfect Scouts, and few
leave as perfect Scouts.  We can point to the ideals of Scouting, show the
best example we can, work to draw out the best in every boy, and try to
show them some fun in the process.  Sadly that formula won't work for
every single boy that enters the program, but it works for the majority of
them.  For those boys that have deeper needs, we can try harder to reach
them.  Sadly sometimes we can't reach them all.

YIS, Cliff Golden
     Scoutmaster Troop 33; DeKalb, Illinois

On Tue, 6 Aug 1996, Chris Schwartz wrote:

> As a troop leader, I and an assistant scout master took
> 3 boys to high adventure camp at Goshen, VA.  There were plenty
> of good things, but one boy cussed me out, refused orders from
> the crew chief and leaders and generally made a great week into
> a barely tolerable week.  I felt like I was a baby sitter.
>
> I knew this boy had poor discipline and recognized that problems
> could arise.  Every time I threatened him with, "I will call your
> Dad and he can come get you", he was good for a few hours.
>
> It would have been better if he could have been prevented from
> ruining the trip for everyone, but I couldn't think of a tactic
> for doing this.  Any ideas for next year?
>    Chris Schwart, CC Troop 1033 Beltsville, MD
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Chris Schwartz                       (301) 286-7345
> Goddard Space Flight Center
> Greenbelt, MD 20771
>

Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 04:21:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Michael F. Bowman" <mfbowman@CapAccess.org>
To: SCOUTS-L - Youth Groups Discussion List <SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU>
cc: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L <SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sticky Fingers

Annie,

Before you have to resort to confrontational counseling with the sticky 
fingered Cub and/or his parent(s), you might want to try an indirect 
approach that would allow him an opportunity for growth without pointing 
any fingers.  Take a look at the Cub Scout Leader How To Book's section 
called Ethics in Action. There is an activity called "Caring and Sharing."

In this activity the Cubs use a mock court to deal with the issues of 
taking care of one's own things and respecting the property of other 
people.  You vary the exercise just slightly to have the mock trial be on 
the subject of stealing, using the same introduction, questions, and 
activities.

I would recommend that "sticky fingers" be asked to be the judge 
or prosecutor and that a volunteer Cub be the suspect.  This should give 
the young man plenty to think about. :-)

Speaking for myself only in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman
Dep. Dist. Commissioner-Training, G.W.Dist., NCAC, BSA (Virginia)
U.S.Scouting Service Project FTP Site Administrator (PC Area) 
ftp1.scouter.org/usscouts; e-mail: mfbowman@capaccess.org

Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 21:26:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Michael F. Bowman" <mfbowman@CapAccess.org>
To: SCOUTS-L - Youth Groups Discussion List <SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Integrity Issue

Mike Sullivan,

Scouting is a game with a purpose and advancement is one of our best 
known tools to recognize accomplishment.  It works when it rewards the 
kind of conduct that leads to good citizenship, character development, 
and fitness.  In the case of your Scout, it appears that he has failed 
to keep his honor as a Scout to be trustworthy.  In his heart he has to 
know that he did not earn the rank, regardless of excuses.  For that 
reason it is premature to allow him to be award the recognition that says
he has grown in citizenship and character, because he has failed in
living the Scout Law and in Scout Spirit.

That said, I strongly urge that this not be considered terminal, rather 
it should be seen as a growth opportunity.  This fellow needs badly to 
learn how to earn trust and live the Scout Law.  He obviously wants to
be recognized for the skills he has learned and the requirements he has 
completed. Now comes the hard part, how to help him recover from his 
awkward position.

I think that several things need to happen:

1.  It has to be made clear that the BOR cannot accept the initials and 
that another BOR will be necessary when the Scout demonstrates he is ready.

2.  Explain in very simple terms the ground rules about trustworthiness.

3.  Ask the Scout what he can do to demonstrate his ability to abide by 
the Scout Law.

4.  Work out an agreement with him that allows him the chance to show
he can be trustworthy.

5.  Conduct another BOR and reward his conduct, if he has made progress.

If you can do this you will be moving him towards the goals of Scouting 
and doing him a great service.   Hopefully this will help him to learn in 
a positive supporting environment, where mistakes can be corrected before 
they become a life pattern.

Speaking for myself only in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman
Dep. Dist. Commissioner-Training, G.W.Dist., NCAC, BSA (Virginia)
U.S.Scouting Service Project FTP Site Administrator (PC Area) 
ftp1.scouter.org/usscouts; e-mail: mfbowman@capaccess.org

Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 20:20:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Michael F. Bowman" <mfbowman@CapAccess.org>
To: SCOUTS-L - Youth Groups Discussion List <SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU>
Subject: Re: trouble w/ untrustworthy scout

Dan,

The parent's reaction is understandable in wanting to pull their boy out 
of the Troop as punishment for dishonest conduct, but also a bit like 
throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  Certainly his behavior leaves 
much to be desired and he needs to make restitution to the victims of his 
con scheme.  But to take him away from what may be the only positive 
influence on his life is not the answer.  What to do?

Lets take a look at what you have.  This boy has imagination and pluck. 
He is creative. He can be motivated by short term goals, if interested. 
That isn't too bad - you have something to work with.  What is he 
interested in doing? What would he like to be able to do? In other words 
what would work as a carrot to captivate his attention short and long term?
To answer this means getting to know the boy as much as you can.  

If you can find things that he is interested in doing then you can help 
him get there and along the way work on reshaping character as long as he 
understands the ground rules.

Does he have leadership qualities? (Forget for a moment whether good or bad)
Can you get him interested in doing some leadership task?  Could he be 
put in charge of a service project as a way of redemonstrating a desire 
to live by the Scout law?  You'll notice that I'm asking a lot of 
questions, because it is hard to predict what is right for this fellow 
without knowing more.  So pardon me if I brainstorm a bit more.

What would happen if he were put in charge of a service project that 
involved say collecting donated books for distribution to inmates in the 
county jail for reading and also in charge of passing out the books? He 
would for sure get to see where his current path/conduct will lead - 
might be food for thought.

Speaking only for myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman
Dep.Dist.Commissioner-Training, G.W.Dist., NCAC, BSA (Virginia)
U. S. Scouting Service Project FTP Site Administrator (PC Area)
ftp1 or ftp2.scouter.com/usscouts E-mail: mfbowman@capaccess.org