From Gary@TPSoftwareINC.com Mon Nov 10 22:13:52 1997 Return-Path: Gary@TPSoftwareINC.com Received: from jasper.n-gate.com (www.n-gate.com [205.238.80.12]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id WAA23567 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:13:52 -0500 Received: from ap10.n-gate.com (ap10.n-gate.com [205.238.80.60]) by jasper.n-gate.com (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id la036593 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 20:03:15 -0700 From: "Gary Piper" To: "Michael F. Bowman" , "Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L" Subject: Re: The Challenge of Life Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 20:05:24 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 X-Info: TP Software at Integra Communications Message-Id: <03031519210693@tpsoftwareinc.com> Status: RO X-Status: I agree that we on the list should try and come up with an approach to this problem. In an effort to support the need I will share the story of Steven, a life scout in my troop. Steven came to my troop in 1990. He was unmanageable. He had everything done for first class except his Board of Review. The troop was working at the church picnic when Steven decided to tell my troop Committee Chairman, Sponsoring Organization representative and me where to go and how to get there when ask to buss tables. It was the last straw for me. I told him to go back to his game. When his mother came to pick him up I scheduled a Scoutmaster conference with her and Steven the next day. Steven totally denied everything and told his mother that I and the other adults were lying. I informed the mother that I felt I could not control Steven on outings any more and would not assume responsibility for him. He could no longer participate in the troop. The mother told me about ADD and Stevens problems. She told me he was under professional counseling. I went to seminars on ADD and learned how to deal with Steven. Steven became one of the best scouts in the troop. He earned Life and was close to Eagle. I thought we were making a difference in Steven’s life. His mother was now an Assistant Scoutmaster. Steven loved Scout and was the best Troop Guide I have ever had. Steven ran for Senior Patrol Leader and lost. The next day Steven shot himself in the head. His mother ask the troop to provide the eulogies and pal barriers at the funeral. I never understood how grief could totally destroy someone until that day. I believe now that Scouting help Steven and delayed his decision. This gave the professionals more time to work with him. It has been four years now and I can finally write and talk about Seven without crying. If there is any way Scouters could have been trained to help Steven, or others like him, we must try. I understand that we can not be expected to change the life of every boy we come in contact with through Scouting. We can try to be the best leaders we are capable of. Providing good program and a healthy atmosphere in scouting is the best place to start. Gary Piper Scoutmaster, Troop 268 -----Original Message----- From: Michael F. Bowman To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Date: Monday, November 10, 1997 12:25 PM Subject: The Challenge of Life >Charlie and others have talked about suicide prevention programs, >statistics on deaths by suicide, and the need for some way to help more >of us as volunteers have a better understanding of how we can do what >I'll call first aid counselling and listening along with how to use >resources available to us to help maybe just one young fellow to know >that he doesn't have to make this terrible choice. > >The outpouring of thoughts in response to Devin's tragedy both public and >private has been strong. Just goes to show that we are family. And I >think we all share a hope that "this won't happen to me" in my unit or in >my home. But we also know that it could happen to any of us any time and >maybe without any warning that we could understand. > >We've broken some new ground here, at least for me. In my nearly 30 >years with Scouting I've never seen such a frank and open discussion of >this topic - teen suicide. But that is the beauty of this tool we use >called e-mail. We can change past conventions. > >BSA did that many years ago when a study revealed that the number >preventable cause of death for young men was drowning. BSA pioneered in >teaching swimming and safe boating in its camps to help stem the problem >and was largely successful. > >Today we have another killer on the lose that is high in the causes of >what might be preventable death. But this one is a lot more difficult to >deal with and handle. Few of us know without training what might be >warning signs or would think that a Scout's life might hang on whether we >could sense right time to give undivided attention and a listening ear. > >Perhaps we as a group could bang our heads together and come up with some >ideas about some way to incorporate training in this subject to adult >leader training, youth protection training, junior leader training, etc. > >We spend a lot of time in discussion helping each other out, helping each >other to do a better job with our Scouts, and sharing in all manner of >ways that help us each to do better. Why not spend a bit of time and >channel that for a short while into some thoughts on how we might put >some ideas together for a program that would perhaps help save lives? > >And of course the bi-product would be a proof of the value of this >Internet tool in doing something very positive. > >So I challenge you all to join in and share ideas on how such a thing >could be done. No doubt we have professional counselors, psychologists, >doctors, clergy, and others that can help right here on the list. And no >doubt we can figure out how to put things together in a way that might be >persuasive. And if we succeed in doing something positive that either by >its process or by its result leads to a single Scout turning away from >death and accepting the CHALLENGE OF LIFE, we will have succeeded. > >Speaking only for myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman >E-mail: mfbowman@capaccess.org Visit: ftp1.scouter.com/usscouts >U. S. Scouting Service Project FTP Site Administrator (PC Area) >Helping to deliver the promise of Scouting from Alexandria, Virginia > From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Tue Nov 11 02:11:54 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id CAA04907; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 02:11:54 -0500 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542593-21807>; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 01:47:35 -0500 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA29195; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 01:40:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1765; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 01:37:23 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9743; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 00:39:07 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 9739 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 00:38:13 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9738; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 00:38:12 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 11 Nov 97 00:38:10 CDT Received: from ACAD1.NWMISSOURI.EDU by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IPV4MJ583K00455A@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for SCOUTS-L@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 00:38:06 -0500 (CDT) Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: <971111003926.2040aefb@ACAD.NWMISSOURI.EDU> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 00:39:26 -0600 Reply-To: BLUE-EYED EAGLE <0203127@acad.nwmissouri.edu> Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: BLUE-EYED EAGLE <0203127@acad.nwmissouri.edu> Subject: A Permanent Decision X-To: SCOUTS-L@TCU.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: I'm very surprised, and pleased, that my post has spurred so much discussion. I'm excited that something good may yet come of this tragedy. Thank you to everyone who has emailed me or the list about this difficult subject. Your advice is very much appreciated. Your prayers are also very much appreciated. This is a wonderful support group to have. I have received a considerable number of emails on this topic and I have read every one of them very closely. I apologize that I have not been able to reply back to everyone individually. To those of you I did reply back to, thank you for your understanding and for overlooking my sometimes rambling and ill-formed thoughts. I continue to welcome further discussion on this issue. To reiterate and stress a few points...Suicide is more common than most people realize. Certainly more so than I realized. In Boy Scouting, we deal with one of the highest risk groups--adolescent males. Scouting has made many enormous contributions to society and I hope it will make yet another. Please lend your support to having suicide training included in national and local courses. We have an opportunity to make a very real difference, in addition to what we already do. Also, please have this discussion in your Troops. Believe me, I know that it isn't something easy to bring up. I sure wish our Troop had held such a discussion, even if there was only the slightest chance that it would have done some good. I speak both to the adults and youth on this list...do not be afraid to bring up the topic of suicide. We need to begin to have more open and frank discussions about it. Especially to the junior leaders on the list, if you initiate such a discussion, it may have an even greater impact. Please consider doing so. I agree with so much of what has been posted on this topic, and I won't repeat it all. Mike Bowman has very eloquently stated many of my thoughts. There is one last point that I would like to emphasize. An earlier poster urged you to consider the impact of guns in the home on suicide. The research I've been doing has shown that there is a very strong correlation there. It isn't that children of gun owners are more likely to attempt suicide, but they are a lot more likely to succeed. I am a supporter of our right to bear arms, but I urge you to consider foregoing this right if your have children in the house. Please give this serious thought. The gun is more likely to be used to commit suicide than to defend your family. That is a frightening truth. I haven't posted nearly all I have to say, but I'll leave it here for now. Again, thank you so much for your outpouring of advice and empathy. I will keep you informed on any significant related news. Yours in the Scouting Spirit, Devin Warrington Forever an Eagle Scout Assistant Scoutmaster Heart of America Council 0203127@acad.nwmissouri.edu