From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Thu Dec 11 15:07:38 1997 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id PAA07700; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:07:38 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8158; Thu, 11 Dec 97 13:59:11 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0442; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:59:30 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 9686 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:58:38 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9685; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:11:25 -0500 Received: from arl-img-10.compuserve.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 11 Dec 97 10:11:21 CDT Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by arl-img-10.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.9) id LAA07344; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:10:37 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <199712111048_MC2-2BA0-6149@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:47:48 -0500 Reply-To: "David F. Delman" Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "David F. Delman" Subject: Troop needs help X-cc: Cameron To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: <> Cameron, I recently sent this note to SPL David, It seems like you have the same difficulties. Your difficulties don't seem as bad as you think once you have a smidgen of flexible discipline at your meetings. = You seem to have a lot of other things going quite well. Fellow Scout-Lrs after SPL David's post also gave great = advice and sometimes different than mine so you might wish to pull down November's Digest via our friendly TCU's = Cyberspace MassStorage Computer. Read TCU's Jon E's = Guidelines you received when you first signed on if you = have problems requesting the digest. ------------------------------ <> SPL David Speaking only on the BoyScout Side. since the techniques are vastly different in Cubs. The Cub Leaders on the list will give you ideas on that side. My best total discipline approach is a bit of a "free for all" of techniques depending on the situation. The Goal being Self Discipline and Discipline when working with = groups within a Young Man's Raging Mind and Body that should last a life time while hopefully still participating in Scouting. Phase:1 (That Casual Discipline needed to Run a Meeting) Scout sign Scout sign Scout sign - When the SPL, ASPL, or the Adults Leader raises the sign Everyone raises the sign. NO HOLLERING at Joey or Tom ((Giving of the Gorilla EyeBall is preferred to opening)) (( of the mouth and hearing the real thing.)) - (My personal preference is for the adults to notify the) (SPL or ASPL and for him to raise the first Scout sign) (Your adults might feel threatened using this technique) ( yet give it an SPL try) - (When any boy is speaking his spiel or performing HIS) (leadership he should feel the "Sign" works for him too) ^^- THIS IS A TECHNIQUE OF WONDERMENT even in Cubs - Use it often and always, before every quiet moment that someone wants or needs to be heard. Using it often is IMPORTANT training to replace your troops current = practice by building a new better practice. Phase:2 (Normal Disorderly/Raging lad Thu Dec 18 10:06:23 1997 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from server1.capaccess.org (server1.CapAccess.org [207.91.115.5]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA09901; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:06:23 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by server1.capaccess.org (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with SMTP id JAA02188; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:59:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3027; Thu, 18 Dec 97 08:59:27 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6733; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:59:56 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 4517 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:58:53 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4516; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:44:42 -0500 Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 17 Dec 97 17:44:39 CDT Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Message-ID: <854575eb.34985f00@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:23:41 EST Reply-To: HAYNESNPA Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: HAYNESNPA Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Den Discipline Problems X-To: dswank@SAT.NET To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: One of the things to do is to also check your Bylaws to see if discipline is included. If not, you might recommend a change to include appropriate conduct and possible consequences. All parents in our Pack are required to sign the Bylaws and abide by them. Additional ideas: Use the good conduct candle. It is lit at the beginning of the meeting by the Denner. The Den Leader puts a 'signs up' whenever there is unacceptable conduct either by the group or one boy, and SAYS NOTHING until all boys are 'signs up' and looking at him/her. (Remarkably.....none of the boys like the lack of adult voices talking.) If this happens 3 times, the candle is blown out by the DL. As soon as the candle burns out, a 'good conduct' field trip is takes (Family Fun, Miniature Golf, etc.) We have one DL bring a bunch of duster feathers to his meeting. If a boy acts out, then he is given a feather he has to hold for the rest of the meeting....no exceptions. 3 featers in one meeting, and the parents are called, and at least told what is going on. Amazingly, the boys REALLY don't want that feather. If the boy(s) are continuing to be disruptive or refuse to comply with holding the feather, parent involvement is necessary to the point of being left out on the next field trip, additional community service, or loss of the next Den Meeting. We haven't seen a feather for the past 8 months! Are you using 'Ethics in Action'? Respect for others is one of the key issues covered by this program. We instituted a policy of raising hands to be recognized, with no one else allwed to speak, giving everyone a chance to tak, if what they had to say was relevant to what the meeting was about. Before this, all boys tried to talk all the time about anything, and the projects were not getting done. If someone is not following this, everything stops, and that individual is talked to as a reminder......in no uncertain terms. Eventually, the disruption stopped. We were gratified that at the first Pack meeting after Roundup, this same group of 'disruptive boys' were complaining about the new kids......"Why can't they sit down and be quiet like everyone else?" Pick a path, and stick to it. Most of the original group of boys in our Pack were ADD (to the max.....with 'medication holidays' for Pack meetings, to boot.) We worked through it, losing no boys or parent participation. Just my $0.02 Dennis Haynes Cubmaster, PAck 635 Desert Pacific Council Escondido, CA From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Wed Dec 17 09:41:26 1997 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id JAA05542; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:41:26 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2291; Wed, 17 Dec 97 08:34:32 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2590; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:34:59 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 2586 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:34:00 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2585; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:33:59 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 17 Dec 97 08:33:53 CDT Received: from rockland.courierpub.com (rockland.courierpub.com) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IR9VOO1WU8003EW2@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for Scouts-L@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:33:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [204.117.39.167] ([204.117.39.167]) by rockland.courierpub.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA07146 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:45:52 -0500 X-Sender: dgrima@rockland.courierpub.com MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:32:03 -0400 Reply-To: David Grima Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: David Grima Subject: Den Discipline X-To: Scouts-L@tcu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: DEAR KRISTEN I am a Cubmaster and Webelos den leader in Rockland, Maine. There are two things I see from your description that I think can be fixed. First, there are about twice as many boys in the den as there should be. No wonder discipline can be tough. My favorite number is six boys, and my absolute maximum is eight. This den should in fact be two separate dens. Second, you speak about a parent assistant when in fact the den really needs a trained assistant den leader. There is a world of difference between the two. The one often feels no genuine commitment, and is sometimes willing to do what they are asked. The other is a genuine fellow leader, as involved as the other one. As Cubmaster you should split the den into two ASAP. Gather the parents of the boys in the new den and tell them you need two to be trained to run it, or else unfortunately the only alternative is to disband. Point out that the present 11-boy den is too large to be successful, and mention that smaller units are easier to handle and therefore better led and accomplish more. Talk to your commissioner or executive, and get some back-up on this, I am sure it will be there. Then ask for volunteers to become leaders. Scouting is a parent and son thing, not a day care operation. Next, you should address the so-called parent assistant issue. Talk to the parents of the boys in the existing den and tell them one must enroll and be trained as a den leader. Tell them that this is how Cubs is supposed to work, and that without it the den will not work as they want it to. I have a similar situation with a den leader. The parents have each come to me privately and said how discpline in his den is poor, and accomplishments few. In each case I pointed out he needs an assistant, and that one of them is the ideal person. Everybody in Cubs seems to think solutions can be found from outside a situation, as if my magic, when usually the solution is already there. They are getting the point. I know this sounds overwhelming, but stick to your guns. When I inherited my CM job, we had no committee and needed a lot of help. So I rounded up the parents and put it to them. To my surprise, I watched them volunteer on the spot. They had never been asked by the previous CM, so did not know what was expected. Now, to prevent all this happening again, you need to concentrate on what we in Pinetree Council call "All Out For Scouting Night," in September. When we held recruitment night this fall, I had the new boys and their parents organized into dens, and had leaders chosen, before I would even give them application forms to fill out. I said I would not enroll any boy unless enough new den leaders enrolled, too. It sounds harsh, but in fact is is not because it works. If you sound desperate to enroll anybody, that is how you will be treated. If you make it sound as though enrollment is a priviledge that carries responsibilities for boys and parents, they will see it that way as well. Believe me, it really does work. Anyway, you owe it to everyone to Do Your Best! Best of luck in Scouting, David Grima Rockland Maine >I'm hoping the list can give me more ideas for how to advise one of my >Den leaders on how to get back in control of her Den. First, The Den >leader HAS been to Leader Basic Training and YP. She began with a Den of >4 boys, the next year had 6, and now has 11. The parent asst. doesn't do >alot to help. > >There seems to be 3 boys who do not behave and pull the rest of the boys >to their level. At her last Den meeting the boys got into a pecan >throwing contest, who can hit the most of the Den members and bystanders >with pecans. When the Den Leader asked the boys to stop one of them hit >her with a Pecan. A halt should have been called there and the culprit >sent home but I believe the boy is one she carts around, picks up at >school and takes home afterwards not alot of parental envolvement. I >don't know who the boys are or if there are underlying problems like ADD, >etc. > >The first Den meeting the boys all read and signed a sheet of 12 Den >Rules based on the 12 points of Scout Law, they are Webelos so this isn't >to advanced for them. So all of the boys should be familiar with the >rules. > >The Den Leader has written a letter to the Parents of the Den asking the >Parents to talk to their boys about their behavior. She has a list of >consequences for actions from time outs to for the fourth infraction >being banned from the Pack. I've told her to document all dicipline and >hopefully have a witness to sign the "incident report" with her. I've >told her to be sure to enforce the rules evenly and fairly. I've printed >new copies of the Den Rules to go back over with the boys so they >remember what may have been forgotten. > >I have no problems with 4 strikes and you're out, in general if it is >fairly enforced and everyone is aware of the consequences and the >situation calls for a drastic measure. There is some behavior that is >totally uncalled for like hitting and throwing Pecans. I'm just afraid >she is so fed up that the severity of the infraction may not matter. I >don't blame her for her frustration, I saw some of the behavior but I was >involved with my own Den at the time and couldn't go to help. I wasn't >sure if and when to get the District Professionals involved with the >situation or if there was anything I could suggest to her instead of the >drastic step of banning. > >I really wanted to be "double checked" to see if I've forgotten anything >and any ideas that might help. > >Thanks in advance, >YIS, >Kristen Swank >Cubmaster and Jack-of-all-Trades, Pack 392 >Winnsboro, Tx >dswank@sat.net