From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Wed Sep 17 02:42:22 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id CAA29267; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 02:42:22 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541672-24484>; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 02:35:22 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA01003; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 02:34:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2986; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 02:31:32 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4845; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 01:35:18 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 4787 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 01:32:47 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4785; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 01:23:27 -0500 Received: from mail.isat.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 17 Sep 97 01:22:21 CDT Received: from unknown ([206.171.120.127]) by mail.isat.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO205e ID# 0-41735U5000L500S0) with SMTP id AAA75 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 22:16:26 -0700 Priority: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 06:16:26 PDT Reply-To: "Charles E. Dobbs" Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "Charles E. Dobbs" Subject: Re: Hazing To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: I wasn't going to say anything on the subject, because I would tend to rant and rave. But I just want those who turn the bobcats upside down to think of this. If there is even 1 chance in 1000000 to injure a boy either physically or emotionally for the sake of "fun" for the other 999,999 boys, should we take the chance? Just my 2 pennies. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- YIS Chuck Dobbs Boulder Dam Area Council Cub RT Commissioner El Dorado District Webelos Leader.Assistant Scoutmaster,Several other hats Beaver W-CS-34 gilwellb@isat.com 610 Blackmore Dr. Henderson,Nv 89015 "I hope I die before I get old"-The Who From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Wed Sep 17 03:00:43 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id DAA00276; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 03:00:43 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541792-24485>; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 02:53:17 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA02630; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 02:52:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3540; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 02:49:15 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4968; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 01:52:54 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 4354 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 01:50:02 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4353; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 23:11:01 -0500 Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 16 Sep 97 23:01:58 CDT Received: by corn.cso.niu.edu id AA26854 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for list scouts-l ); Tue, 16 Sep 1997 22:58:03 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 22:58:03 -0500 Reply-To: golden cliff Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: golden cliff Subject: Re: Another point about hazing X-To: "Blaine A. Jackson" To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <19970915.154044.16254.2.blainej@juno.com> Status: RO X-Status: Blaine, You have a correct understanding of the Scouting program, the other adult does not. There are those that attempt to turn Scouting into some type of junior marine corps. They don't get it. The best Scouters I've seen (coaches as well) were demanding in positive ways. They challenged Scouts in ways that led to personal growth. Usually the somewhat dimmer among us, do a lame attempt at toughness, without regard to outcome or purpose. You are doing well by conveying to your sons a sense of purpose in what they do. When they are asked to do something without purpose and meaning, they question it. That's the way it should be. We teach character, citizenship, and fitness. We develop young men who are physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight. There are those that do pale imitations of something lesser. You are on the right track, stay your course. YIS, Cliff Golden Scoutmaster Troop 33; DeKalb, Illinois Three Fires Council BSA From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Wed Sep 17 03:20:14 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id DAA01323; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 03:20:14 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542198-24485>; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 03:12:32 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA04132; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 03:11:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3958; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 03:08:11 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5110; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 02:12:00 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 3434 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 02:09:12 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3433; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:28:11 -0500 Received: from mixer.visi.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 16 Sep 97 18:28:09 CDT Received: from upstairs (lego.visi.com [209.98.6.154]) by mixer.visi.com (8.8.6/8.7.5) with SMTP id SAA16793 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:26:34 -0500 (CDT) Posted-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:26:34 -0500 (CDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1008.3 X-MimeOle: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.1008.3 Message-ID: <199709162326.SAA16793@mixer.visi.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:25:27 -0500 Reply-To: Peter K Kennon Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Peter K Kennon Subject: Re: hazing policy taken too far. To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: I am a staff member at a council summer/winter scout reservation. During this last summer we had an adult leader demand that we not sing some of the classic summer camp songs such as: -Announcements -Sing a Song.... -Round the Table You must go -Happy Birthday -Ain't no flies on us -If I couldn't be on the ____ Staff She said that these all fell under the BSA's hazing policy and we "should be ashamed of ourselves" for singing them at summer camp. So we stopped. At the end of the week almost all the unit evaluations made some comment about how the camp experience had be less because of the missing songs. Comments.... Are these songs hazing??? Peter K. Kennon ICQ: 606143 lego@visi.com "If it takes courage to stand up and speak, it takes even more courage to sit down and listen." *LEGAL NOTICE TO ALL BULK E-MAILERS* Pursuant to US Code,Title 7,Chapter 5,Subchapter II,227,all nonsolicited commercial Email sent to this address is subject to a download & archival fee in the amount of $500 US. E-mailing to this address for commercial purposes denotes acceptance of these terms. Violators will be prosecuted to the maximum extent of the law. From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Wed Sep 17 04:16:37 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id EAA04321; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 04:16:37 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542133-24489>; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 04:09:25 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id EAA09346; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 04:08:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6017; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 04:05:56 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5608; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 03:09:43 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 1436 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 03:06:41 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1435; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:40:46 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 16 Sep 97 10:40:43 CDT Received: from mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net (mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01INPHAEMEF4001OOS@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for Scouts-L@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:39:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from default ([207.146.48.219]) by mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA25398 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:39:06 +0000 MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-WorldNet (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <341EA80B.4B13@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:38:51 -0400 Reply-To: Richard Fletcher Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Richard Fletcher Subject: Upside Bobcats & National Policy X-To: Scouts-L Youth Group List To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: > I suspect there would be a humorous way for a group of > adults to get me upside down (I'm 6 foot 4 inches and 195 pounds and 52 > years old) so that I can pin on a Bobcat pin or two. Let's be resourcefull. How about a teeter-totter-type board where the Cubmaster lies on it and is turned nearly upside down? Note: Where can I find the written directives from National where it was stated a new Bobcat should not be turned upside down and the practice should be halted? There is so much I hear claiming to be National's position (not just regarding this topic), yet I cannot believe it until I see it in print. It's not that scouters are dishonest--it's that many of us tend to interpret the rules rather than following them to the letter. It would be beneficial to long-time Scouters to receive an annual update from National regarding program and policy changes. YIS, Dusty Fletcher Dan Beard District, Occoneechee Council, Raleigh, NC Pack 165 - Webelos Den Leader, Pack Committee Chairman Troop 165 - Troop Committee Member District Mall Expo Chairman From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Wed Sep 17 11:56:23 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id LAA28505; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:56:23 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542117-24483>; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:48:38 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA09640; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:43:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4489; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:40:59 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8665; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:44:52 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 8651 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:43:56 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8650; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:43:55 -0500 Received: from crcnis1.unl.edu by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 17 Sep 97 10:43:51 CDT Received: from ccmail.unl.edu by crcnis1.unl.edu with SMTP id AA25733 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:42:42 -0500 Received: from ccMail by ccmail.unl.edu (ccMail Link to SMTP R8.00.00) id AA874510989; Wed, 17 Sep 97 10:43:14 -0600 X-Mailer: ccMail Link to SMTP R8.00.00 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <9709178745.AA874510989@ccmail.unl.edu> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:39:00 -0600 Reply-To: rlosee@CCMAIL.UNL.EDU Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Bob Losee Subject: Re[2]: hazing To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: >> >And being held upside down is neither embarassing, demeaning, nor >> >unnecessarily risky. >>> >> I disagree with you. It is embarrassing, demeaning and EXTREMELY RISKY. >I have yet to see a cub embarassed or demeaned by the practice. Getting >hugged by your mom in public is embarassing. As for the risks, without >statistical data, I suppose they're in the eye of the beholder. I get >flak (mostly from moms) for taking scouts camping in the winter (too >cold). In the summer (too hot). In the rain (too muddy). Our pack continues, rightly I believe, to turn boys upside down, with the consent of their parents and themselves. I'm guessing about 10% don't want to. Of these about half change their mind after they see others enjoy it. I also believe the risk must be assessed not by our lame perceptions but by objective facts. Driving a car is inherently less safe than commercial air travel despite some peoples fears and perceptions. I too have had parents more worried about rain, mud, and sub-zero weather ("Is it really OK to sleep in this weather.") than in the driving conditions to the camp. Charles Dobbs in another post stated: >If there is even 1 chance in 1000000 to injure a boy either >physically or emotionally for the sake of "fun" for the other 999,999 >boys, should we take the chance? This suggests the risk of injury or even death must be below .000001% before attempt to have fun. So a few questions come to my mind. How many people go through Philmont in a year and is the injury rate below .000001? I know the ONE time I was there in 1970 I meet a crew whose leader died of a heart attack. And hours after we left camp they closed the whole camp down because one boy died there of what they thought at the time was bubonic plague (yes we had an interesting reception when we got home). What about local camps? I've personally witnessed one person get heat exhaustion. We've also had one of our Boy Scouts injured in a fall. I've even heard tell of other boys cutting themselves with knives and axes and having to be taken to medical facilities. What about transportation in general? A couple years ago our council had an adult leader killed driving scouts to an activity because (as I may wrongly recall) someone crossed the center line (thank goodness no scouts were seriously injured). All this and yet I've not heard of any cub being injured being turned upside down for a pinning. All this admittedly anecdotal evidence would indicate we should shut down our summer camps, stop driving, stop using knives and axes before we go on to the lesser problem of a pinning ceremony, but to paraphrase an old commercial, show me your risk statistics! The bottom line seems clear to me on risk: we accept much more risk than a one in a million for the sake of fun in scouting. The above post also stated that: >I recognize that camping has a purpose in the program, and that being held >upside down doesn't. I would beg to disagree. The purpose is to have fun and make it memorable with an unusual ceremony. The purpose is no different than dressing up like Native Americans for OA. To make a memorable and fun ceremony. Ultimately the question is an age old one, "Is it worth it?" that is, it the benefit received worth the price to be paid. And the ways to deal with this are just as old. Try to increase the benefits and reduce the costs. In the particular case of Bobcat pinnings, our packs solution has been to increase the fun for boys by making it they and their parents decision. We do this before the ceremony to give them some time to think about this. We also reduce the risk by having two of our largest people hold up a boy in such a way either one could let go without dropping the boy. My $1 worth. YiS, Bob Losee, SM Troop 25, ACM Pack 25