From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Thu Sep 18 08:29:18 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA24174; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:29:18 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542029-27089>; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:20:30 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA21901; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2313; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:16:35 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2759; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:19:59 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 1272 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:19:22 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1271; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 22:20:49 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 17 Sep 97 22:20:43 CDT Received: from emout25.mx.aol.com (emout25.mx.aol.com) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01INRK1GXNNK001XDW@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for Scouts-L@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 22:19:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout25.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id XAA11796 for Scouts-L@tcu.edu; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: <970917225207_438672991@emout12.mail.aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:19:00 -0400 Reply-To: HAYICU2@aol.com Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "John A. Clow" Subject: Re: Re[2]: hazing X-To: Scouts-L@tcu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 9/17/97 3:44:52 PM, you wrote: <If there is even 1 chance in 1000000 to injure a boy either >physically or emotionally for the sake of "fun" for the other 999,999 >boys, should we take the chance? This suggests the risk of injury or even death must be below .000001% before attempt to have fun. So a few questions come to my mind. How many people go through Philmont in a year and is the injury rate below .000001? I know the ONE time I was there in 1970 I meet a crew whose leader died of a heart attack. And hours after we left camp they closed the whole camp down because one boy died there of what they thought at the time was bubonic plague (yes we had an interesting reception when we got home). What about local camps? I've personally witnessed one person get heat exhaustion. We've also had one of our Boy Scouts injured in a fall. I've even heard tell of other boys cutting themselves with knives and axes and having to be taken to medical facilities. What about transportation in general? A couple years ago our council had an adult leader killed driving scouts to an activity because (as I may wrongly recall) someone crossed the center line (thank goodness no scouts were seriously injured). All this and yet I've not heard of any cub being injured being turned upside down for a pinning. All this admittedly anecdotal evidence would indicate we should shut down our summer camps, stop driving, stop using knives and axes before we go on to the lesser problem of a pinning ceremony, but to paraphrase an old commercial, show me your risk statistics! The bottom line seems clear to me on risk: we accept much more risk than a one in a million for the sake of fun in scouting. The above post also stated that: >I recognize that camping has a purpose in the program, and that being held >upside down doesn't. I would beg to disagree. The purpose is to have fun and make it memorable with an unusual ceremony. The purpose is no different than dressing up like Native Americans for OA. To make a memorable and fun ceremony. Ultimately the question is an age old one, "Is it worth it?" that is, it the benefit received worth the price to be paid. And the ways to deal with this are just as old. Try to increase the benefits and reduce the costs. In the particular case of Bobcat pinnings, our packs solution has been to increase the fun for boys by making it they and their parents decision. We do this before the ceremony to give them some time to think about this. We also reduce the risk by having two of our largest people hold up a boy in such a way either one could let go without dropping the boy. >> Bob An awlful lot of excuses for one who should have read the numerous responses to this list that have given the official BSA policy that this is NOT Okay. Cease and change. Do you have good personal insurance? Start another tradition by formulating another ceremony. Many have been offered here. Your opinion is respected, but as leaders, we must adhere to the BSA policies as we promised to do when we became leaders. BSA says "no". The way to change rules is to petition for what you feel is right. We cannot change policy on our own. John Clow Committee Chair Pack 468 Committee Troop 468 District Vice Chairman for Cub Scout Leader Training From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Thu Sep 18 08:40:38 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA26490; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:40:38 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542569-27093>; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:32:17 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA22833; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:30:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2667; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:27:05 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3031; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:29:46 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 0480 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:29:15 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0479; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 16:02:17 -0500 Received: from boulder.Colorado.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 17 Sep 97 16:02:09 CDT Received: from rococo.Colorado.EDU (rococo.Colorado.EDU [128.138.247.88]) by boulder.Colorado.EDU (8.8.7/8.8.7/UnixOps/Hesiod/(SDM)) with SMTP id PAA28450; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:00:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: by rococo.Colorado.EDU (cu.generic.890828) Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Message-ID: <9709172101.AA27065@rococo.Colorado.EDU> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:01:24 MDT Reply-To: Jonathan Dixon Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Jonathan Dixon Subject: Re: hazing policy taken too far. X-To: Peter K Kennon To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <199709162326.SAA16793@mixer.visi.com>; from "Peter K Kennon" at Sep 16, 97 6:25 pm Status: RO X-Status: D From: Peter K Kennon > -Announcements > -Sing a Song.... > -Round the Table You must go > -Happy Birthday > -Ain't no flies on us > -If I couldn't be on the ____ Staff > > Comments.... Are these songs hazing??? I'm not familiar with the second,third, and last songs, so I can't comment on those. As for the others, I do not see tham as hazing (except perhaps in very specific circumstances). First of all, most of these songs are meant to be sung as a group with a staffer or adult as the recipient. The Announcements song could get to be hazing if it was a camper who was up front and the song was allowed to drone on; the others should know better than to use the "A word". One thing that does need attention with it is striking a balance between the need for completeness in presentation and the need for timeliness in the day's activities. Singing Happy Birthday to someone, while it can be somewhat embarrasing to the scout, rarely falls into the demeaning nature that would comprise hazing. I have seen local camp traditions which can come close, but they have all stayed within the line. Also, the purpose of the activity is to congratulate the person, not to ridicule them. What I see as hazing (or at least as inappropriate) is requiring a scout or small group of scouts to sing a song by themselves as a punishment for something (most often to retrieve a lost article). The purpose of this is to ridicule, embarrass, and demean the boys, and this is not appropriate in scouting. I think the person who made the complaint must have misunderstood what had been said about songs and hazing. However, for a more definative answer on which might be hazing, talk to your council exec. He should be familiar with what National currently allows and is the one responsible for what happens at the council camp. Jon -- Jon Dixon dixonj@colorado.edu http://spot.colorado.edu/~dixonj/ From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Thu Sep 18 09:31:04 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA11167; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:31:04 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541477-27092>; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:22:19 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA27354; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:21:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4150; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:18:25 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4658; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:22:21 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 4336 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:21:14 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4335; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:14:19 -0500 Received: from sampson.cbn.org by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 18 Sep 97 08:14:09 CDT Received: by sampson.cbn.org; id JAA25857; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:22:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1.cbn.org(159.26.64.19) by sampson.cbn.org via smap (V3.1.1) id xma025847; Thu, 18 Sep 97 09:22:33 -0400 Received: from ccMail by m1.cbn.org (SMTPLINK V2.10.08) id AA874599002; Thu, 18 Sep 97 09:11:57 EST Encoding: 19 Text Message-ID: <9708188745.AA874599002@m1.cbn.org> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:11:57 EST Reply-To: carl.westfall@CBN.ORG Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Carl Westfall Subject: Re: Re[2]: hazing X-To: HAYICU2@aol.com To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: It is foolish to even consider using the practice of turning boys upside down to receive their Bobcat. Forget about the fact that it is frowned on by the majority of most leaders AND parents. Forget about it not being exactly the safest thing you could do to a kid. Forget about all the press BSA is already getting about abusing children. Our best reason for not doing it is --- it doesn't make sense or serve any purpose. The Bobcat is the boy's (and his family's) first experience with Scouting. We try to make the presentation something special and encourage him to keep working for many more achievements. How many boys have ever decided they didn't want to stay in Scouting because of how we presented our awards? ZERO!! But I know of many boys that have been scared away from other units because of their foolish tactics. If you are going to something that discourages involvement, then you are making the biggest mistake that you can. Just my 2 cents worth Carl Westfall Pack 53 COR - Troop 48 ASM - E.R. Dist. Memb. Chair. Chesapeake, VA From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Thu Sep 18 09:12:15 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA05293; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:12:15 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541541-27095>; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:02:51 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA25679; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:01:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3714; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:58:37 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3795; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:58:17 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 8825 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:57:18 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8824; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:53:45 -0500 Received: from crcnis1.unl.edu by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 17 Sep 97 10:53:43 CDT Received: from ccmail.unl.edu by crcnis1.unl.edu with SMTP id AA25950 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:52:39 -0500 Received: from ccMail by ccmail.unl.edu (ccMail Link to SMTP R8.00.00) id AA874511587; Wed, 17 Sep 97 10:53:10 -0600 X-Mailer: ccMail Link to SMTP R8.00.00 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <9709178745.AA874511587@ccmail.unl.edu> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:51:23 -0600 Reply-To: rlosee@CCMAIL.UNL.EDU Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Bob Losee Subject: Re[2]: hazing To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Hope stated: The Bobcat Rank is a Cub Scout Rank and the ceremony where the boy receives the badge is a Cub Scout Ceremony. Regardless of the physical attributes of the people "turning the boy upside down", if National BSA says that this "SHOULD NOT BE DONE" - then this act should not be done. Should we just pick and choose which rules we wish to follow from the Guide to Safe Scouting? A year or two ago during a similiar agruement (this is one of those seasonal things, like it's time to make grape pie) people here were making statements about National Policy. I thought I exhaustively researched this in scouting materials. Finding none I even asked our DE. No such proscription could be found. So could you please cite the manual and page so I could be informed? In answer to your question, no I don't believe we should just pick and choose which rules to follow (consequently I'm known as By the Book Bob). Nor do I believe we should state something is policy to support our beliefs when in fact it is not. YiS, Bob Losee, SM T25, ACM P25 From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Thu Sep 18 08:55:22 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA29980; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:55:22 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542353-27095>; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:46:21 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA24085; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:45:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3131; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:42:47 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3381; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:42:32 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 9272 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:41:46 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9271; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:39:49 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 17 Sep 97 12:39:41 CDT Received: from mx1.dynasty.net (mx1.dynasty.net) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01INQZPZEPCW001KNI@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for scouts-l@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:37:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from jessica ([208.205.50.102]) by mx1.Dynasty.Net (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA119; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:52:32 -0500 X-Sender: blkeagle@mail.dynasty.net MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970917165447.00aea534@mail.dynasty.net> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:54:47 -0500 Reply-To: "settummanque, or blackeagle (Mike Walton)" Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "settummanque, or blackeagle (Mike Walton)" Subject: Re: Upside Bobcats & National Policy (long) X-To: Richard Fletcher , scouts-l@tcu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: *THIS POSTING IS GOING TO BE LONG* I've tried three times this morning to post this; between my wife's software, my mother's phone calls (she wanted to talk and I can't type and talk at the same time...and she called TWICE today...I was glad to talk with her, though) and CNN's "Breaking News" (I've got to blame SOMEONE, you know *heehhehehee*), this posting never made it. Hopefully, this time it will. I'll post an elongated response to this at the following site AFTER 5pm today CT, since this question has come up either privately or in the forum: http://members.aol.com/coffeeweb/LO/cnclpack.htm Richard Fletcher asked: > Where can I find the written directives from National where it >was stated a new Bobcat should not be turned upside down and the >practice should be halted? At *your Council Service Center* and specifically from *your Council Scout Executive*. He or she should have some *specific guidance* from the Director, Cub Scout Program Division, to him or her addressing this practice; as others before and as I've mentioned here several times, it is UP TO HIM OR HER TO INTERPRET AND ENFORCE (or not) THIS AND ANY OTHER NATIONAL POLICY IN HIS OR HER TERRITORY. >There is so much I hear claiming to be National's position (not just >regarding this topic), yet I cannot believe it until I see it in print. That's because, Richard, as I've been saying since I've started here on Scouts-L back in the early 90s, the BSA and your local Council does NOT do a good job of letting you and me and all other "field workers" know of those changes UNTIL one of two things happen: * until you or I come into the office with a copy of a posting from Scouts-L or some other forum, asking the Council Scout Executive (because our DE's "don't know anything" we think...or know!) "Hey! I've read here that the policy has changed...you have a copy of it??" (in which they will politely take a copy of your copy, call or fax national or their neighboring larger Council and ask for a copy of "this form" or "this policy statement", get it and all of a sudden "they are the most knowledgable folks in the land" about the topic) or * until someone gets hurt, killed or sues the local Council, or until someone starts stomping "I know it's true!!!!! You are SUPPOSED TO HAVE A COPY OF THIS!!" (in which they will politely ask you to control yourself, while staff members are looking through filecabinets, garbage cans and again asking other Councils that *may have it* to send them another copy of the policy or program change...and in the meantime, they will apologize to you and some *might* ask for your registration card because they have just been "upstaged by some volunteer that doesn't NEED TO KNOW as much as they do"!) I know both extremes, Richard, because both has happened *to me*. This is part of the reasoning why I have come here to Scouts-L and why I have since the start have shared the "BSA side of things", even though it sometimes doesn't place the brightest lights onto our program. This is a professional AND volunteer problem....so this is NOT "Council Scout Executive" bashing...but rather reality as I've seen it (and as you've probably been used to it). Usually by the first working day of each month, your Council Scout Executive/Council Executive (title's only a compensation determinator; this is the senior-most administrator of Scouting in your local Council) gets a packet of information anywhere from a quarter to a inch and a half thick, from National. It's called the "Council pouch" because back in the old days, the information came in a pouch. Some call it the Council Packet. (the website has examples of what's in the Council Packet) The Packet is sent to the CE. He or she does one of three things with this information: * takes an entire afternoon and evening to review the information, makes notes and then distributes it to his field staff, program staff and others in the Council for their action and sharing with volunteers * gives it to his Assistant or the senior Field Director less those things specifically addressed to him or her; the Field Director or Assistant Scout Executive then takes the "good stuff" and then gives the rest to his or her field staff for sharing * or places it in a filing cabinet less those things he or she has to take action on immediately; when someone asks about it, they can find it in the cabinet; he or she shares with the field staff that stuff that he or she WANTS to share and WANTS to let volunteers know about. Once a month, a full staff meeting is called in which ALL of the professional staff of that Council comes in from all directions and gives and gives information to each other. That's when in the better Councils, that information is shared between the Field Director or Scout Executive and the field executives (District, Exploring, program executives, the Registrar, other employees) Those professionals ARE RESPONSIBLE but may CHOOSE NOT TO share that information with their volunteers in their respective areas. Many do, in a responsible way by providing them copies of the National or Regional information that they have received from their boss. Some only put a summary, along with the "boss's guidance" in the Council's newsletter or through Roundtables. But some DO NOT SHARE ANYTHING AT ALL; or PICKS AND CHOOSES WHOM THE INFORMATION IS BEING SHARED WITH, and therefore those two things happen above that I've mentioned with regards to "why don't we get the information". So, as you can see, Richard, it's NOT just the professionals...it's some of our volunteers, especially Commissioners and Committeemembers at the District or Council level that gets this new information but doesn't do their part to SHARE IT with ALL OF US in the best ways possible. Significant NATIONAL policies (which as I've stated above, may or may NOT be your Council's policies) are also announced about 60 to 90 days after the policy has been sent to the Councils (to allow for mailing to Europe and the Far East and for the sharing...or supposely sharing to those volunteers in far off places like Spain!), the same announcement is made in _Scouting_ , _Boys'_Life_, and _Exploring_Journal_ magazines. In that way, those that haven't been told or were late getting the information are "told". Most of the time, those items are listed in "Scouting Around", "News Briefs" and "Pedro's Hitchn' Rack", although they may appear in other places within the magazines. There's a lot more to this that I'll explain on the webpage. Settummanque! (c) 1997 Mike Walton ("no such thing as strong coffee,...") (502) 827-9201 (settummanque, the blackeagle) http://dynasty.net/users/blkeagle 241 Fairview Dr., Henderson, KY 42420-4339 blkeagle@dynasty.net kyblkeagle@aol.com or waltonm@hq.21taacom.army.mil ---- FORWARD in service to youth ---- From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Thu Sep 18 10:30:01 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA26764; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:30:01 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541556-27097>; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:20:44 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA22215; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:23:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2411; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:20:15 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2842; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:23:16 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 0794 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:22:27 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0793; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 17:58:22 -0500 Received: from pioneer.nevada.edu by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 17 Sep 97 17:58:21 CDT Received: (mccracd1@localhost) by pioneer.nevada.edu (8.8.5/8.6.4) id PAA20381; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:56:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:56:42 -0700 Reply-To: DEBRA MCCRACKEN Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: DEBRA MCCRACKEN Subject: Re: Re[2]: hazing X-To: Bob Losee To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <9709178745.AA874510989@ccmail.unl.edu> Status: RO X-Status: I think this has been hashed to death--the official guidelines say not to turn the Bobcats upside down--why do we have to keep on discussing it? Debra McCracken mccracd1@nevada.edu University of Nevada Las Vegas (702) 895-1689 From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Thu Sep 18 11:22:48 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from server1.capaccess.org (server1.CapAccess.org [207.91.115.5]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id LAA11828; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:22:48 -0400 Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by server1.capaccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA02510; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:14:28 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542488-27095>; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:12:14 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA25288; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:56:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3564; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:53:55 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3660; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:53:29 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 8940 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:52:38 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8939; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:04:14 -0500 Received: from crcnis1.unl.edu by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 17 Sep 97 11:03:45 CDT Received: from ccmail.unl.edu by crcnis1.unl.edu with SMTP id AA26265 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:02:39 -0500 Received: from ccMail by ccmail.unl.edu (ccMail Link to SMTP R8.00.00) id AA874512185; Wed, 17 Sep 97 11:03:10 -0600 X-Mailer: ccMail Link to SMTP R8.00.00 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <9709178745.AA874512185@ccmail.unl.edu> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:59:08 -0600 Reply-To: rlosee@CCMAIL.UNL.EDU Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Bob Losee Subject: Re: Upside Bobcats & National Policy To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Richard Fletcher stated: Note: Where can I find the written directives from National where it was stated a new Bobcat should not be turned upside down and he practice should be halted? There is so much I hear claiming to be National's position (not just regarding this topic), yet I cannot believe it until I see it in print. It's not that scouters are dishonest--it's that many of us tend to interpret the rules rather than following them to the letter. It would be beneficial to long-time Scouters to receive an annual update from National regarding program and policy changes. I certainly agree with you Richard. Maybe the BSA should post to the Web and mail out substative changes to health, safety, and requirements? Along this line I was wondering if there was a change in National Policy that requires permission slips for each event? I've heard rumblings about it, and I intent to start doing it as SM of our troop because it's a good idea, but is there an official policy and/or form? Inquiring minds want to know. YiS, Bob Losee, SM T25, ACM P25 From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Thu Sep 18 11:27:03 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id LAA13018; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:27:03 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542057-27091>; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:18:29 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA23723; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:40:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3003; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:37:26 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3281; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:39:09 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 9769 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:38:19 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9768; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:54:45 -0500 Received: from inf1.infoserv.net by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 17 Sep 97 13:54:40 CDT Received: from [200.34.160.39] by inf1.infoserv.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11679) with SMTP id AAA21802; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:48:22 -0600 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199709162326.SAA16793@mixer.visi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <341FC02E.EC7@mex1.uninet.net.mx> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:34:06 +0000 Reply-To: Rodrigo Sandoval Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Rodrigo Sandoval Subject: Re: hazing policy taken too far. X-To: Peter K Kennon To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Peter K Kennon wrote: > > I am a staff member at a council summer/winter scout reservation. During > this last summer we had an adult leader demand that we not sing some of the > classic summer camp songs such as: > -Announcements > -Sing a Song.... > -Round the Table You must go > -Happy Birthday > -Ain't no flies on us > -If I couldn't be on the ____ Staff > > She said that these all fell under the BSA's hazing policy and we "should be > ashamed of ourselves" for singing them at summer camp. So we stopped. At the > end of the week almost all the unit evaluations made some comment about how > the camp experience had be less because of the missing songs. > > Comments.... Are these songs hazing??? > > Peter K. Kennon > ICQ: 606143 lego@visi.com > > "If it takes courage to stand up and speak, it takes even more courage to > sit down and listen." > > *LEGAL NOTICE TO ALL BULK E-MAILERS* Pursuant to US Code,Title 7,Chapter > 5,Subchapter II,227,all nonsolicited commercial Email sent to this address > is subject to a download & archival fee in the amount of $500 US. E-mailing > to this address for commercial purposes denotes acceptance of these terms. > Violators will be prosecuted to the maximum extent of the law. Happy Birthday in the policy???, please give me a break I'm from Mexico and also we have a policy about books, songs, etc, but happy birthday, I think this person is mad or doesn't know anything about scouts, maybe she's kind of religious fanatic or something like that Greetings from the biggest city in the world -- Rodrigo Sandoval Velazquez 525-605-5380 525-605-1554 rodrigos@mex1.uninet.net.mx From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Thu Sep 18 11:11:37 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id LAA08339; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:11:37 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542389-27092>; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:01:57 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA23932; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:43:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3087; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:40:21 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3355; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:41:25 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 9397 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:40:27 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9396; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:50:16 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 17 Sep 97 12:50:12 CDT Received: from mx1.dynasty.net (mx1.dynasty.net) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01INR03D7A5S001REG@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for scouts-l@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:48:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from jessica ([208.205.50.98]) by mx1.Dynasty.Net (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA178; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:47:47 -0500 X-Sender: blkeagle@mail.dynasty.net MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970917175003.006c3428@mail.dynasty.net> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:50:03 -0500 Reply-To: "settummanque, or blackeagle (Mike Walton)" Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "settummanque, or blackeagle (Mike Walton)" Subject: Re: Upside Bobcats & National Policy X-To: Richard Fletcher , scouts-l@tcu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Sorry...my mom called again (we're trying to get a car "signed back over" to my baby brother); I didn't get a chance to finish my response to Richard. Richard Fletcher concluded: >It's not that scouters are dishonest--it's that many of us tend to >interpret the rules rather than following them to the letter. It would >be beneficial to long-time Scouters to receive an annual update from >National regarding program and policy changes. You *do get* an "annual update" from National through your local Council, Richard, but let me please respond to the first part of your paragraph. A lot of times, we don't have ANY guidance at all other than what I would call "Common Scouters' Sense"...that is, doing the best things for the youth, in the best interest of Scouting, and without causing harm to the program or yourself and your family. So, yeah, we do interpret many of the "rules" we are *told* and which are not "written down somewhere" in some book or manual. Even then, some of us don't follow those things, either (which gets my fellow Scouter Kathie Cereveny *really mad*; she like me, is a "stickler" for what "the books say"...I'm a little more flexible than she is, but she's RIGHT ON THE MONEY....if the BSA's materials and national guidance says "Scouters cannot" or "Scouters may not" or "A Scout can not", then there's no "fudge factor" involved...you don't, he doesn't, she doesn't, they don't. Period. However, that's NOT the way that the vast majority of the BSA's materials and books and guidances are written. They are written so that EACH AND EVERY LOCAL COUNCIL EXECUTIVE -- where the "bucks stop" -- can interpret and decide how "TOUGH" or "LOOSE" he or she is going to apply that policy to *their Council's operation*. And it SHOULD be that way, Richard. We had a discussion a while back and there was a Scouter from Alaska here, Rhett. Rhett and I both on-list and off-list went around and around and around with that topic...and we were BOTH RIGHT. He was applying and telling us what HIS Council was doing, and the desires of HIS Council's Scout Executive. While I was saying "he's not doing it the way the BSA says it's to be done", at the same time I was saying, "but if HE wants to do things *that way*, he's YOUR COUNCIL EXECUTIVE. We volunteers place a lot of trust into the hands of those 323 men and women that manages our Councils on a day-to-day basis. We hope that they will apply the BSA's policies AND OUR COLLECTIVE DESIRES in the best way possible to make the program work and grow "in our neck of the woods". But it's not always so. Some CEs see their role as "a management stepping stone" toward that NEXT plateau, that of being on the National staff , an Area Director or a member of a Regional staff. They can't do that if "they don't push the envelope" a bit. Being "ho-hum" don't get you promoted with the BSA....you've got to be innovative, you've got to be challenging...you've got to "strike out and make your Council known" as Ben Love did in his rise to the Chief Scout Executive's suite in Texas. Even if that means that sometimes your volunteers don't get the word at the risk of "losing control over your volunteers". I keep coming back to your Council Executive, Richard, and I shouldn't be. I should be coming back to those senior-level volunteers at the Council and District levels that SHOULD BE getting this and other information from their professional counterparts...and SHOULD BE DEMANDING that they share whatever they get program-wise from National, your Region, and any neighboring local Councils with them....so that they can turn around and share it with YOU and other unit-level Scouters. This is where the "communications problem" gets bottled up; when folks want to "hold on to the maximum amount of information to make themselves *feel* important or "retainable". I've seen it as a District Commissioner whereby I've had Unit Commissioners "hold onto" Camporee materials until almost the last possible date because "Well, they've never attended a Camporee before...they won't be going to this one, so I'd save the postage". Or as a Council Exploring Chair, whereby District Executives would tell me "I don't have any Exploring units, so I just trash the Exploring stuff I get" and then two months later, call me to have me provide them with a copy "of something a while back...I must have thrown it away because I didn't think I'd need it". Some Councils don't WANT TO BE BOTHERED with programs that they are not staffed for or those in which the CE doesn't want to "activily promote". Take for example, the National Exploring Conference. If a Council decides to send a contingent to this biannual conference which elects a slate of national Exploring officers including the National Explorer President and Vice President, they would have to appoint a staff member and a volunteer to "take on the task". Some Councils only have three staff members, and it may be too much of an additional duty for either of those three to handle in the middle of so many other IMPORATANT tasks that they do already. So when an Explorer calls up and wants more information about it, they are told "We don't know anything about it." and hope that their hiding under their desks will keep that young person -- or his or her parents -- from calling National, requesting the flyers, and finding out again (from his Council) how to go to this "kewl conference". The same happens when some Scouters want to attend training courses, or attend Wood Badge, or participate in a Philmont conference. Only the more progressive Councils, the ones in which the Council Executive has caught on that "either you do your best to answer their questions now, or answer them from BOTH the volunteer and National when they "find out"", will they at least try to find the information out for you.... So, what have I said in two postings, Richard?? * Policies are determined by National, announced through your local Council, and depending on your Council, may be more or less than what National has wrote down * Lots of stuff that we talk about here on Scouts-L and on other forums have come from Scouters that have somehow got copies of the information shared from National to local Council and are sharing it with you because someone has taken the time to share it with them * The BEST SOURCE for finding out any information about the way YOUR COUNCIL is "doing things" is from YOUR COUNCIL SCOUT EXECUTIVE. I think this was also expressed on the WELCOME letter as well. While some of us get information and are willing to share it, *your Council* may NOT be using that program, may NOT be "pushing for participation" in a particular program, or may NOT be "staffed" to provide those services that you're asking for. In those cases, your next best source to find out about the information is the BSA's National Office...that's why we have them there for....and of course, "using your resources" by asking here or in other approprivate forums for assistance and help. Every local Council is required to have a Program Kickoff meeting. Many Councils use that meeting to announce new policy changes, new programs and new professional and volunteer leadership to manage and run those programs and policies. Lots of Councils do these "Kickoffs" on a District or Division level, and in addition to passing out materials and calendars, also allow you as a volunteer to ask specific questions of your Council Scout Executive and his or her staff. That's when your "annual program announcements" are made -- more specifically, that's where you find out how YOUR MAN or WOMAN is going to handle concerns and questions concerning policy, procedure or programming. Sorry for the lenght of these two postings......Again, I've posted both postings along with additional information at the following URL: http://members.aol.com/coffeeweb/LO/cnclpack.htm Settummanque! (c) 1997 Mike Walton ("no such thing as strong coffee,...") (502) 827-9201 (settummanque, the blackeagle) http://dynasty.net/users/blkeagle 241 Fairview Dr., Henderson, KY 42420-4339 blkeagle@dynasty.net kyblkeagle@aol.com or waltonm@hq.21taacom.army.mil ---- FORWARD in service to youth ----