From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Tue Sep 23 12:20:57 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id MAA06162; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:20:57 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542476-8469>; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:58:18 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA16840; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:23:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3499; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:20:04 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7479; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:23:44 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 4827 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:22:54 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4825; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:07:49 -0500 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Mon, 22 Sep 97 17:07:44 CDT Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA25829 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:06:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from as5200-14.sl023.cns.vt.edu (as5200-14.sl023.cns.vt.edu [128.173.39.178]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id SAA06704 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:06:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dabrown2@mail.vt.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <199709222206.SAA06704@sable.cc.vt.edu> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:03:36 +0600 Reply-To: Daniel Brown Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Daniel Brown Subject: Re: Hazing To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: General rule # 3. If the educational value to the recipient is less than the entertainment value to the perpetrator or others, its hazing. BTW: That includes upside down bobcats IMHO. At 02:43 PM 9/19/97 CDT, you wrote: >Our Troop has had some trouble with Scouts picking on handicap Scouts. So I >am going to have a talk with them about all things, "hazing". I thought I >knew what hazing was but I have seen several interpretations here that I >never about before. So now what should I tell them? From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Tue Sep 23 12:01:33 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id MAA00306; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:01:33 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542641-8469>; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:44:09 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA15909; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:15:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3057; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:12:23 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7278; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:15:31 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 5255 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:14:41 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5254; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:56:16 -0500 Received: from cap1.CapAccess.org by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Mon, 22 Sep 97 19:56:13 CDT Received: (from phbrown@localhost) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) id VAA29217; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:00:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:00:27 -0400 Reply-To: "Paul H. Brown" Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "Paul H. Brown" Subject: Re: Hazing -what next X-To: Zimmermann To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <3425CAB6.5326@pacbell.net> Status: RO X-Status: One of the reasons that the new scout patrol was established was to intercept some hazing from the older scouts. Each NSP should have at least one Troop Guide assigned, and an ASM is also helpful. One of the duties of the TG is to watch for hazing. YiS, Paul H. Brown, KD4UPD I used to be an Antelope, WB 82-66 Scout Roundtable Commissioner, Assistant District Commissioner, Pack CC George Washington District, National Capital Area Council, BSA From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Tue Sep 23 12:03:30 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id MAA00726; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:03:30 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542342-8472>; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:45:51 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA17085; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:26:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3541; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:22:34 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7535; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:25:45 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 4612 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:25:06 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4611; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:16:29 -0500 Received: from mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Mon, 22 Sep 97 16:16:26 CDT Received: from host ([207.147.73.49]) by mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA29058; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:10:57 +0000 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-WorldNet (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3425CAB6.5326@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <3426DED7.6D7A@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:10:47 -0400 Reply-To: John Birle Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: John Birle Subject: Re: Hazing -what next X-To: Zimmermann To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: This one's easy. The Scout Oath and Law prevail - old or young. Separation is an avoidance, not a solution. One on one conversations with the older Scouts making it clear that any hazing, bullying, teasing or harrasment of younger Scouts is intolerable and could result in the removal from Scouting of anyone who does it. Then make that stick. The Venture Crew should be doing high adventure and helping the others along. It sounds to me like they need program. They may not have enough exciting things to do. From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Tue Sep 23 10:25:37 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA01011; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:25:37 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542681-8467>; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:15:04 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA15579; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:12:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2937; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:09:24 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7223; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:13:17 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 5290 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:12:02 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5289; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:16:31 -0500 Received: from sisko.se.wp.cc.nc.us by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Mon, 22 Sep 97 20:16:28 CDT Received: from Luminare.wp.cc.nc.us ([198.85.218.29]) by sisko.se.wp.cc.nc.us (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA30656 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:51:28 -0400 X-Sender: tudorj@mail.wp.cc.nc.us X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970922211618.006d2ee4@mail.wp.cc.nc.us> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:16:18 -0400 Reply-To: John Tudor Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: John Tudor Subject: Re: hazing policy taken too far. To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <199709162326.SAA16793@mixer.visi.com> Status: RO X-Status: At 06:25 PM 9/16/97 -0500, Peter K Kennon wrote: > I am a staff member at a council summer/winter scout reservation. During >end of the week almost all the unit evaluations made some comment about how >the camp experience had be less because of the missing songs. > >Comments.... Are these songs hazing??? > > Peter and all: At this point, I am of the firm belief that a very good case could be made to call any activity hazing that is a part of scouting. Unfortunately, there are a multitude of people with overly enhanced sensibilities, who have taken the political correctness idea to new heights of insanity. I do not wish to ever harm any boy, or adult, and I do not wish to ever embarrass or harass any boy or adult, I was embarrassed and hazed as a boy myself, so I know how it feels. However, there is a line which keeps good clean fun from becoming hazing, and it is beginning to seem like too many people have made it their lifes work to keep moving that line further and further into the fun. If you take the fun out of scouting, you will also eventually lose all the boys, then what will we have left? For my own part, I am very tired of this hazing thread. I think that everything has been said that needs to be said, and I wish it would be dropped. Can the sheriff declare a moratorium on this thread, unless there is something new to be said??? PLEASE!!! Thanks for letting me vent! John Tudor ASM Troop 184 Morganton, NC Troop 184 Web Site http://www.bsa.net/nc/t184 Wood Badge SR-201 1997 QBSA Radio 1997, News Director I used ta be a "Bad News Bear".....I can hardly "Bear" it!!! "Try not, Do, or Do Not, There is no try!" YODA, The Empire Strikes Back mailto:tudorj@wp.cc.nc.us Member DNRC "Eny eereras in typin are a sign of creativiti by the aouther end knot necessseserily a sign uf typin abilitie." :) From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Tue Sep 23 10:36:36 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA04195; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:36:36 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542594-8466>; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:22:18 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA16398; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:19:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3315; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:16:59 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7402; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:20:59 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 4924 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:20:10 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4923; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:36:36 -0500 Received: from enterprise.desperado.dyn.ml.org by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Mon, 22 Sep 97 17:36:32 CDT Received: from localhost (jclagget@localhost) by enterprise.desperado.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id SAA00952; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:33:52 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: enterprise.desperado.dyn.ml.org: jclagget owned process doing -bs X-Sender: jclagget@enterprise.desperado.dyn.ml.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:33:52 -0400 Reply-To: Jeff Claggett Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Jeff Claggett Subject: Re: hazing policy taken too far. X-To: Brian Walter To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <970920193247_1864520514@emout09.mail.aol.com> Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 20 Sep 1997, Brian Walter wrote: > At 06:25 PM 9/16/97 -0500, you wrote: > > ...we had an adult leader demand that we not sing some of the > >classic summer camp songs such as: > >-Announcements > >-Sing a Song.... > >-Round the Table You must go > >-Happy Birthday > >-Ain't no flies on us > >-If I couldn't be on the ____ Staff > > > >She said that these all fell under the BSA's hazing policy ... > > Ok I though that Hazing was making a person feel bad. I don;t know about > anyone else but Happy Birthday always made me feel good! But but but but, its embarassing to be singled out like that! :) I have to agree that on some points the policy has gone to far, but on others it is dead on. (Now I remember my first time hunting for Prop Wash ... (we were an AF troop so it was Prop Wash and 50' of Flight Line more than anything else). Then one time we got bored. We found a lefty and brought him back to camp and stood him next to the fire with a large hand style fan. He was a 'Left Handed Smoke Shifter' :) Ahhh the late 80s early 90s :) Jeff Claggett Willmington Island, GA jclagget@bellsouth.net http://users.invweb.net/~jclagget From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Fri Sep 19 12:41:58 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id MAA14439; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:41:58 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541990-4681>; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:34:08 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA13013; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:39:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3749; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:37:00 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1781; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:32:37 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 6250 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:32:14 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6249; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:35:23 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 18 Sep 97 10:34:54 CDT Received: from alpha.xerox.com by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01INS9NQ84XC001W70@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for Scouts-L@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:33:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Homer.PARC.Xerox.xns by alpha.xerox.com via XNS id <53225(2) >; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-NS-Transport-ID: 0000AA008EE7069A37BA Message-ID: <97Sep18.083258pdt."53225(2)"@alpha.xerox.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:32:31 -0700 Reply-To: jacobi.PARC@XEROX.COM Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: jacobi.PARC@XEROX.COM Subject: Re: hazing policy taken too far X-To: Scouts-L@tcu.EDU X-cc: Christian_P_Jacobi.PARC@xerox.com To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <19970918092221Z542226-27095+360@outbound.Princeton.EDU> Status: RO X-Status: > ...Are these songs hazing??? A song is not hazing, or non-hazing in itself. What makes something hazing are the circumstances under which it is performed. No, the hazing policy policy can not be taken too far. It needs to apply 100%. However people's perception on what is and what isn't hazing seem to be somewhat unclear. If you want to apply this to upside down bobcats, I would like to add one more thought: I don't think turning a boy upside down is hazing, however I wouldn't do it for other reasons. If some boys missconstruct it as hazing it could teach them that hazing is "ok". Definitely not something I would like to teach. Chris