From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Wed Sep 24 10:54:29 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA10419; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:54:29 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542108-19916>; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:45:27 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA27301; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:43:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0342; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:40:15 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3814; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:42:34 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 0794 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:41:38 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0793; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:44:04 -0500 Received: from gort.canisius.edu by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 23 Sep 97 18:43:59 CDT Received: from antares.canisius.edu by gort.canisius.edu (SMI-8.6/CC_ITS-SVR4/Canisius-3.10) id TAA28192; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 19:42:03 -0400 Received: by antares.canisius.edu (4.1/CCCS-3.00) id AA04897; Tue, 23 Sep 97 19:44:07 EDT Message-ID: <9709232344.AA04897@antares.canisius.edu> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 19:44:07 EDT Reply-To: The Wizard Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: The Wizard Subject: Re: Jewelry in Uniform X-To: dixonj@ROCOCO.COLORADO.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: I agree with Jon, keeping the boys involved in Scouting is more important than protecting the "old fashioned" notions of a bunch of fuddy-duddy old Scouters who have lost touch with the times. This is as bad as those "old timers" who insist that hazing was good for them so it must be good for today's Scouts! I don't recall seeing anything on the uniform inspection sheets or in the Scout Handbook that mentions anything about jewelery or piercings or *gasp* tattoos for that matter being against any set policy. Referring to yet another recent thread, this isn't the military! Scouts should be allowed as much personal freedom as they can get without crossing into safety issues. Do we demand that all Scouts have brush cuts? No! Is long hair acceptable? Of course it is! Unless it is a greasy, stringy mess, in which case it fails the CLEAN portion of the Scout law but even those with short hair can lose on that one. Safety is my only concern and that is the only time I even bring up such things as pierced earings. I think a dangling earing is a *bad* idea for a camping trip, having seen someone get their earing caught on something and RIPPED out of their ear once before. So, instead of banning them, I suggest that a Scout so inclined either leave them at home or at least wear something suitable for the environment they will find themselves in. Not making a big deal out of it and treating them with some respect and giving them the power to make up their own minds about the issue goes much farther towards Troop cohesion than reactionary eddicts about what is and is not acceptable. For the record, I personally have no piercings or tattoos and I am 35 years old myself. Unlike some Scouters who seems to have forgotten their own childhoods and how much they hated arbitrary rules which only caused them to rebel further, I use those memories as a base for how I treat our Scouts. YIS, Scouter David ASM, Troop 108 Kenmore, NY From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Wed Sep 24 12:46:05 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id MAA10111; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:46:05 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542381-19922>; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:38:37 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA00883; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:21:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1493; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:18:07 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4136; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:56:18 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 9893 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:55:22 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9892; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:42:40 -0500 Received: from csrlink.net by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 23 Sep 97 14:42:36 CDT Received: from LocalPC.tobyhanna.army.MIL (pm3std1-31.csrlink.net [207.44.9.224]) by csrlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA07231 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:34:03 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <19970923.131215.22014.6.ATMaddox@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <34281C02.7019@csrlink.net> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:44:02 -0400 Reply-To: jgasink@CSRLINK.NET Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "John A. Gasink" Subject: Re: Jewelry in Uniform To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Ok, here goes, scout uniforms are to help identify and unify us, however, they are not meant to make us all the SAME. Many youth and some adults feel the need to be a "little" different, its their choice and as long as it is not unsafe, it shouldn't be a problem. We have many other problems to worry about, why make more, now some will say that this is about setting a moral standard, but whose morals are we going to enforce? If we are truly supposed to be a safe haven for ALL boys, then we need to make sure our rules are based on the safety of those boys, and not somebody's perception of what an earring does to the BSA image. YIS -- JOHN A. GASINK - East Stroudsburg, PA Pokawachne Chapter Adviser - Lead, Follow or Get OTTER the Way Witauchsoman Lodge #44 Eagle 81,Vigil 91, Cast Member - Odyssey of the Law NJ97 I used to be a Golden Eagle - NE-IV-50 From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Wed Sep 24 12:46:54 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id MAA10283 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:46:54 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541638-19912>; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:39:37 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA25367; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:21:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9601; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:18:09 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3347; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:21:33 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 2107 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:20:21 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2106; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 00:57:47 -0500 Approved-By: EIDSON@TCUBVM Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0396; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:42:01 -0500 Received: from cap1.CapAccess.org by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 23 Sep 97 16:41:58 CDT Received: (from csinghal@localhost) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) id RAA13169; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:46:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:46:15 -0400 Reply-To: Cheryl Singhal Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Cheryl Singhal Subject: Re: Jewelry in Uniform X-To: "Bruce E. Cobern" To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <199709231745.NAA28114@brickbat9.mindspring.com> Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Bruce E. Cobern wrote: > > From: Sage Backstrom > > Date: Tuesday, September 23, 1997 1:07 PM > > > > It is the content of the character, not the outward appearance that is > > important. > > the prejudice is mine and is my problem, but that doesn't stop the impact > it can have on the Scout's relationships with those around him. The subconscious is a powerful thing, and the impact certain things have on certain people are unknowable. However, as a general rule, if one dresses as one's grandmother would prefer, it's fairly unlikely to offend --unless of course, your grandmother happens to be the unconventional type, like say, Madonna or Gypsy Rose ... It's hard enough to get a job these days without imperiling one chances by flauting the prevailing standards of the prospective employer. None of which is to be taken as an endorsement for earrings -- I don't much like the darn things, they pinch. Cheryl From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Wed Sep 24 12:53:22 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id MAA12126; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:53:22 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541637-19914>; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:46:18 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA00738; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:20:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1376; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:17:12 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4011; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:51:11 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 0265 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:50:19 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0264; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:59:15 -0500 Received: from LuciaDiLammermoor.acsu.buffalo.edu by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 23 Sep 97 15:59:00 CDT Received: (qmail 26262 invoked by uid 20116); 23 Sep 1997 20:57:19 -0000 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19970923205719.26261.qmail@LuciaDiLammermoor.acsu.buffalo.edu> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:57:19 -0400 Reply-To: Don Izard Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Don Izard Subject: Re: Jewelry in Uniform X-To: dixonj@ROCOCO.COLORADO.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <9709231915.AA19600@rococo.Colorado.EDU> from "Jonathan Dixon" at Sep 23, 97 01:15:20 pm Status: RO X-Status: And what about the National Eagle scout items? Rings, pins and necklaces etc. Or beside purple hair, some boys are wearing purple or black NAIL polish. And then what about tatoos? I think we have to be careful with the first admentment, and staying with in BSA guidelines. If it does not violate some BSA policy, or saftly standards, what justification can you use to support such a ban? > > From: John Tudor > > > What will be next for the scouts, pierced eyebrows, noses, lips, tongues??? > > Scouting has to draw the line somewhere, or completely lose control. I > > think this is a good place to draw the line... > > How about if the boy dies his hair purple? Do you forbid them to come > to meetings like that? What about female leaders who wear earrings? > Rings (class rings, wedding rings, etc) are not specifically part of > the uniform, nor are watches, nor are glasses. > > I would set the standard based on whether it violates scout principles > or creates safety problems. I would ban items that suggest, > encourage, depict, etc, violations of Cleanliness (eg: pornography, drugs > (inc alcohol and tobacco)). Also for safety reasons there might be > activities where earrings are inappropriate (when they might get > caught in something). For that matter, the neckerchief and WB beads > mentioned in an earlier post would be inappropriate if the task at > hand was working with a lathe. > > Beyond that, I would not set forth any strict policy. I would remind > scouts that they are representing scouting when in uniform, and that > their entire appearance should represent that (even having shirts > tucked in). I would rather keep the earrings/noserings/whatnot then > to lose the boys. > > From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Wed Sep 24 12:54:20 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id MAA12221; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:54:20 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541905-19922>; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:46:59 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA24256; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:08:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9141; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:05:46 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3073; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:09:25 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 2295 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:08:35 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2294; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 01:45:39 -0500 Received: from enterprise.desperado.dyn.ml.org by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 24 Sep 97 01:45:31 CDT Received: from localhost (jclagget@localhost) by enterprise.desperado.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id CAA00662; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 02:30:37 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: enterprise.desperado.dyn.ml.org: jclagget owned process doing -bs X-Sender: jclagget@enterprise.desperado.dyn.ml.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 02:30:36 -0400 Reply-To: Jeff Claggett Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Jeff Claggett Subject: Re: Jewelry in Uniform X-To: Carl Westfall To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <9708238750.AA875050982@m1.cbn.org> Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Carl Westfall wrote: > I agree with Mr. Tudor. I feel it is up to each troop to establish it's own > uniform code (provided they are not going against any BSA standard). I am in > favor of jewlry being disallowed with the uniform. We don't allow boys to wea r > non BSA badges or pins on their uniforms, nor do we approve of the wearing of > improper head gear. Earrings do not belong with the Scout uniform (boys or > adults). As was stated in an earlier message - it gives off the wrong > impression. In most cases the boy with the earring may be your best top notch > Scout, but that isn't the impression that most get when seeing him. It isn't > fair that the whole troop be judged as a "loose" troop because of a few boys > appearance but it happens. Troops should try there best to avoid that happeni ng > by eliminating the possibility. Okay then. Lets take off the wedding bands. (They're not uniform items.) Lets take off the ladies' earrings (Nope, not uniform items either). I guess my gold box chain and Egyptian cartoush(sp) will have to go as well then huh? Males (both youth and adults) wearing earrings has become so popular in todays society that it is a non event. Personally I get no different impression of a person when they are wearing an earring or not. In fact I'm personally thinking of getting a diamon stud here soon (Diamond over gold only as I was born in April and diamond is my birth stone) ... So suddenly I am 'tacky' or something? Teens like to do things to express themselves. Earrings are a natural part of that expression (btw, fyi I've 21 right now and not doing this as a part of my teen expression). In todays society, if the worse a kid is doing is wearing an earring then we are lucky. My $0.25 (Bloody inflation :) Jeff Claggett Willmington Island, GA jclagget@bellsouth.net http://users.invweb.net/~jclagget From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Wed Sep 24 12:55:46 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id MAA12596; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:55:46 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541609-19920>; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:47:42 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA00553; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:18:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1280; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:15:40 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3935; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:47:28 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 0368 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:46:40 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0367; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:30:47 -0500 Received: from mail.fuse.net by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 23 Sep 97 16:30:43 CDT Received: from ultra (kiang-74.fuse.net [208.16.146.202]) by mail.fuse.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA14683; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:27:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199709230027.UAA26204@post1.fast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <342833F2.12F77643@fuse.net> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:26:11 -0400 Reply-To: Focus Management Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Focus Management Subject: Re: Jewelry in Uniform X-To: LaBuz To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: LaBuz wrote: > Our Troop Committee recently established a policy ... > > ...Does anyone know if BSA national has a policy regarding jewelry in > uniform? Larry, There is certainly no shortage of opinions on this subject. I do know that there are no national policies about wearing jewelry while in uniform. In my opinion, some jewelry, especially body piercing, can make me and others feel uncomfortable. However, this is largely not the problem of the wearer of the jewelry. As long as the jewelry is not extreme and does not become a major distraction, I see no problem with accepting it as part of our (or their) culture that we are free to dislike. I do have one problem with the situation that was not directly addressed in the other responses I read so far. IMO, it is not the committee's role to make these decisions. The troop's program belongs to the Scouts and should be run by the PLC. The SM should always provide strong training and guidance and has veto authority that should be used sparingly, but as long as it's not a safety issue, not a violation of national or council policies, and falls within the general parameters of a good Scouting program (as witnessed by 50% of the responses to your post), the PLC should be allowed to make decisions like this and live with the consequences. If the PLC needs training and is not functioning very well yet, the SM may need to make a decision like this until they get up to speed, but in no case should the committee be making program decisions. It's simply not their role. It is the responsibility of the SM to train boy leaders to run the troops program. We must not train our Scouts to lead and then undermine that leadership. We must accept their decision and, just like the responses to your post on Scouts-L varied widely, recognize that there will probably be many Scouts and Scouters (maybe you included), that will not like their decision. This is not a matter of life and death and if we can't trust them with this decision, what can we trust them with? Just my opinion. YIS, Bob Myers, Troop Committee Member, Troop 3, Cincinnati, Ohio From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Wed Sep 24 13:01:11 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from server1.capaccess.org (server1.CapAccess.org [207.91.115.5]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA13947; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:01:11 -0400 Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by server1.capaccess.org (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20434; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:54:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541765-19912>; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:49:38 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA27000; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:39:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0242; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:36:34 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3718; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:38:46 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 1062 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:37:53 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1061; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:12:34 -0500 Received: from sparticus.bright.net by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 23 Sep 97 20:12:23 CDT Received: from fdyg51 (find6-cs-6.dial.bright.net [205.212.145.220]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.8.7/8.8.7/FNG) with SMTP id VAA27822 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:09:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: owlelope@mail.bright.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <199709240109.VAA27822@sparticus.bright.net> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:09:20 -0400 Reply-To: Rod Smith Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: Jewelry in Uniform To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Our troop just did basically the same thing. The situation was that while on our way to Philmont another troop came in where we were staying with a crew chief with blue hair and several boys with toe nail and finger nail polish on. While I was out picking up another leader at the airport, three of my boys decide that they wanted their toe nails and finger nails polished. The other two leaders told them to take it off before I got back. One boy did not and we had words to the effect that it came off or he was headed home. He did take it off, but him and his parents caused a real riff when they got home and put me on the spot about my bias about painted nails. I do have a couple boys that wear earrings. Well what it all boiled down to was that we made a rule that a boy could not come to the Scout meeting unless he had a Class A or B uniform on and that jewelry(earrings, chains, etc.), non normal colored hair and nail polish were not appropriate with the Scout uniform. It is unfortunate that we couldn't just use the Scout oath and law as direction for personal appearance, but a lot of the scouts of today don't have the same interpretation of what these mean or what appropriate appearance is when you are in uniform. We have had the policy in effect for 3 weeks and haven't had to much of a problem. Hopefully it will tone down and we won't have to worry about it. At 08:41 PM 9/22/1997 -0400, you wrote: >Our Troop Committee recently established a policy that prohibits Scouts >from wearing "visible" jewelry with Class A or Class B uniforms. The >policy was recommended by an assistant scoutmaster and overwhelmingly >adopted by the Committe after a few scouts started wearing earings and >LARGE beaded necklaces. > >At the last meeting, one of our senior scouts passed around a petition >recommending that the policy be overturned with the intention of bringing >it to the commitee for reconsideration (the petition was obviously written >by one of his parents). > >Does anyone know if BSA national has a policy regarding jewelry in uniform? > Does anyone have a "no jewelry" policy in their troop and, if so, what is >the basis for such a policy. > >Your thoughts on this subject would be greatly appreciated. > >Larry LaBuz >Scoutmaster, Troop 242 >scouters@fast.net > > From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Wed Sep 24 13:02:30 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA14472; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:02:30 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542228-19914>; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:54:25 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA25181; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:18:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9539; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:15:45 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3289; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:18:40 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 2129 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:17:37 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2128; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 01:01:47 -0500 Approved-By: EIDSON@TCUBVM Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0482; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:03:44 -0500 Received: from x4.boston.juno.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 23 Sep 97 17:03:12 CDT Received: (from blainej@juno.com) by x4.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id RAJ20621; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:59:27 EDT References: <9708238750.AA875050982@m1.cbn.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-6,11-12,17-21 Message-ID: <19970923.165935.13182.3.blainej@juno.com> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:58:30 -0500 Reply-To: "Blaine A. Jackson" Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "Blaine A. Jackson" Subject: Re: Jewelry in Uniform To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:41:16 EST Carl Westfall writes: >I agree with Mr. Tudor. I feel it is up to each troop to establish >it's own uniform code Sometimes it is better to be subtle in your message. When our Jambo contingent stopped at Union Station in D.C., some of our older scouts came looking to adults to "ask them a question". It was obvious that they were looking for a reaction to the magnetic earrings they had purchased, and wanted us to give them a hard time about wearing the ear rings. In surprising agreement, the other 1st SA and I neither one said a word. After they left, we asked a younger scout where the other had purchased the earrings. He and I went to the same store, and waited until there were no scouts around. We both purchased magnetic earrings, and wore them for the rest of the afternoon. By that evening, all the earrings had disappeared. Blaine From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Wed Sep 24 13:07:21 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA15547; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:07:21 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541920-19919>; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:59:43 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA24412; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:09:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9229; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:07:01 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3100; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:10:26 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 2291 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:09:45 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2290; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 01:45:03 -0500 Received: from tacoma.nwrain.net by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 24 Sep 97 01:44:56 CDT Received: by tacoma.nwrain.net (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #1) id ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 22:55:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: heavey@nwrain.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 23:43:23 -0700 Reply-To: "Thomas Heavey, Sr." Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "Thomas Heavey, Sr." Subject: Jewelry Thread To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: It was said ..." In most cases the boy with the earring may be your best top notch Scout, but that isn't the impression that most get when seeing him. It isn't fair that the whole troop be judged as a "loose" troop because of a few boys appearance but it happens. Troops should try there best to avoid that happening by eliminating the possibility." And also said " Scouting has to draw the line somewhere, ..." Why does Scouting have to draw the line somewhere? Don't we already draw it by establishing the uniform? We have many women who wear the scouting uniform and most of them wear earings. This is not the military, as we have discussed in another recent thread. And furthermore, what's wrong with being a "loose troop"? Are the boys running the program, and don't they want to keep things loose. I was proud of my SPL this summer when he sewed his SPL patch to his bathrobe, which he wore to the morning assembly and announced we were all present. I did have to chastise him though when he succumbed to the peer pressure of the other SPLs and he saluted the program director after his report. Its bad enough that people want to make scouting like school. But please don't make it like the military. Take the time to read what the official publications say about uniforming. We wear them not because we hold any illusions that we will all look "uniform." We wear them, for among other reasons, to help us recognize each other and our "unform" committment to certain ideals. _____________ Thomas Heavey, Sr. ___ | | heavey@nwrain.com \ \ / | AmeriCorps Program Manager\ \/ * Tacoma, WA | YN1-USCGR \__ | Scoutmaster Troop 299 |_______________| WE-1-603-92 (I used to be an owl ...) www.nwrain.net/~troop 299 "Anyone can be great because anyone can serve." --MLKjr From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Wed Sep 24 13:08:14 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA15765; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:08:14 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541541-19914>; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:00:24 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA25109; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:17:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9505; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:14:33 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3263; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:17:21 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 2137 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:16:47 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2136; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 01:04:21 -0500 Approved-By: EIDSON@TCUBVM Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1046; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:01:03 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 23 Sep 97 20:00:12 CDT Received: from mail.tznet.com (mail.tznet.com) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01INZSTFLUSW001WZH@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for scouts-l@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 19:57:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sl113.tznet.com ([206.31.5.143]) by ipad2.tznet.com with SMTP (IPAD 1.90/64) id 5742200 ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:01:21 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: jpeterson@mail.tznet.com MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: <199709240101.5742200@ipad2.tznet.com> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:01:21 -0500 Reply-To: Jim Peterson Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Jim Peterson Subject: Re: Jewelry in Uniform X-To: scouts-l@tcu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: At 02:02 PM 9/23/97 -0400, John Tudor wrote: >IMHO, >If a boy wants to wear an earring when he is out of uniform, I have no >problem with that, because it is his business. BUT when he is in uniform, >he is representing the Boy Scouts of America, and I feel that the earring >is out of place. > >What will be next for the scouts, pierced eyebrows, noses, lips, tongues??? > Scouting has to draw the line somewhere, or completely lose control. I >think this is a good place to draw the line... > And what then, if the Scout decides that his right to express himself as he sees fit is more important to him than being a part of Scouting. Is an earring really a good reason for losing a Scout? Is a necklace? A nose ring? A pierced tongue? I don't think so! And what if the scout looks through the Scout Catalog and picks out an official BSA earring? Are you prepared to tell your female volunteers that they are not welcome unless they, too remove their jewelry? How about your wedding ring and watch, aren't they also considered jewelry? I think you draw the line at "Does the Scout follow the Scout Oath and Law in their daily life?" YiS, _____________________________________________________________________ Jim Peterson Advancement Chair, Boy Scout Troop 379, Blenker, Wisconsin Cubmaster, Pack 379, Auburndale, Wisconsin jpeterson@tznet.com http://www.tznet.com/jpeterson I used to be a "Singing" Eagle ... working my ticket C-8L-97 ********Citizenship************Fitness************Character********** "Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is the probable reason why so few engage in it." - Henry Ford From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Wed Sep 24 13:09:08 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA15988; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:09:08 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541201-19916>; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:00:51 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA00967; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:21:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1569; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:18:24 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4190; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:58:28 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 9835 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:57:55 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9834; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:26:07 -0500 Received: from algw2.lucent.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 23 Sep 97 14:25:54 CDT Received: from drmail.dr.lucent.com by alig2.firewall.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-L sol2) id PAA19128; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:28:12 -0400 Received: by drmail.dr.lucent.com (4.1/EMS-L SunOS) id AA24027 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 23 Sep 97 13:23:24 MDT Received: from drgpsun1 (drgpsun1.dr.lucent.com) by drmail.dr.lucent.com (4.1/EMS-L SunOS) id AA24018 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 23 Sep 97 13:23:21 MDT Received: from fjb.dr.lucent.com by drgpsun1 (5.x/EMS-L SunOS) id AA29739; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:23:20 -0600 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) Mime-Version: 1.0 References: <3.0.3.32.19970923140233.006bb60c@mail.wp.cc.nc.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <3428090B.33BB@lucent.com> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:23:07 -0600 Reply-To: Jeff Bogart Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Jeff Bogart Organization: Lucent Technologies Subject: Re: Jewelry in Uniform To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: John Tudor wrote: > > IMHO, > If a boy wants to wear an earring when he is out of uniform, I have no > problem with that, because it is his business. BUT when he is in uniform, > he is representing the Boy Scouts of America, and I feel that the earring > is out of place. If BSA has no official policy against earrings, how is he misrepresenting BSA when in uniform wearing an earring? > What will be next for the scouts, pierced eyebrows, noses, lips, tongues??? > Scouting has to draw the line somewhere, or completely lose control. I > think this is a good place to draw the line... Lose control of what? Is there a moral issue here? What are we drawing the line against? -- ~ ******* Jeff Bogart ~ **** **** o jeffbogart@lucent.com_ _ _!__ *** *** o (303) 538 4268 _ / \_ _/ \ |::| ___ *** *** ~ o Room 30G-69 _/ \_/^ \/ ^\/|::|\|:| *** **/^\_ /\ o FAX 4158 /\/ ^ / ^ / ^ ___|::|_|:|_/\_******/ ^ \ / \# / \ _/ ^ ^ / |::|--|:|---| \__/ ^ ^\___/ :: \ _/_^ \/ ^ ^ / ^ |::| |:|: :| / ^ /| :: |\ Lucent Technologies, (Bell Labs), Denver,|CO Home, Boulder,|CO ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 6> WB course 383 "Stumpy" Bob White, Philmont 1971 (w) Alternate Email:jeffbogart@cyberdude.com, H:(303)530-0343 Come to Philmont in 1998 for Wood Badge - a once-in-a-lifetime chance! visit http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/JeffBogart/wb62298.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------