From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Thu Sep 25 13:20:49 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA16137; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:20:49 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542326-23197>; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:11:28 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA24784; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:06:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2419; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:03:55 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8816; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:18:02 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 4530 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:17:30 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4529; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:12:49 -0500 Received: from arl-img-10.compuserve.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 24 Sep 97 10:12:44 CDT Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by arl-img-10.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.5) id KAA16766 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:45:36 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <199709241045_MC2-21A5-8537@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:45:19 -0400 Reply-To: "David F. Delman" Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "David F. Delman" Subject: Jewelry in Uniform To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: <> No Jewelry NO JEWELRY NO JEWELRY SORRY, Use your Adult Prerogative and Override them. Hopefully with information first, and then take the flak. The Buck Stops first with your Committee Adults. Even if I don't personally mind a boy wearing a "dog collar" or even enjoy it as a break in life, it causes too many problems = with other adults throughout scouting and with US military and = government people that continually help us in scouting. I want = my troop and your troop to be respected by these individuals when they see you or you decide to visit their installations at almost no cost. I won't give the full instance but I will say that a major military installation had a major FIT when one of our lads wore won of these = collars on their base. Good and polite kid. = WHAT!! a response including a letter to National. = Not fun for me, us, or our Council. Is this the kind of response you want from others when they see or know your Troop is Coming to Town?? I am sure not!! Our Council's Scout Camp also doesn't allow Jewelry. Talk to your local Council Scout Camp Maestro about their practices. Hopefully they will have a "no jewelry" policy to ease your decision and troop = strife. If we read the "Insignia Guide" we see no place for bones through the nose in terms of official wearing technique albeit they might be great to grab when a boy gets out of line. Collars are OK too for putting a chain through and yanking a boy back on task, earing to pull off a ear lobe or yank on when needing a bit more attention, beaded necklaces to catch and choke by a peer. Sorry for the aside I couldn't resist the fun images. Again, I personally don't mind except for safety but I as you are small fish. If we read in the Paper tomorrow "Boy Scout Troop 242 breaks with tradition and allows bones in the nose" What's next". What would our guy in Chicago fighting an atheist who wants to break scouting by having his son join and not say the Scout Oath think of T-242 or us. One final note, however you go. Thank your scouts for the petition as a method of exercising democracy in practice and encourage them to = do it again and again. YiS, IMHO, and may we each attempt to live the SO,SL,SS,SM Mr Dave (Hawleyton, NY (Susquenango Council P.S. Sorry, I disagree with so many of you, with only four seemingly in my court. << Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:15:20 Calvin H. Gray" <405geezer@IGG-TX.NET>> << Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:07:18 Sage Backstrom > << Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:58:02 Allen Maddox > << Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:49:38 Bruce E. Cobern" > S << Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:51:01 Dave Wiebe << Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:02:33 John Tudor > << Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:41:16 Carl Westfall << Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:00:19 Ian N Ford > << Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:15:20 Jonathan Dixon dixonj@ROCOCO.COLORADO.EDU>= From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Thu Sep 25 13:22:31 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA16699; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:22:31 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541644-23198>; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:13:22 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA24753; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:06:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2395; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:03:36 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8245; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:52:47 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 7084 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:51:57 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7083; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:57:43 -0500 Received: from ns.why.net by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 24 Sep 97 21:57:40 CDT Received: from [209.60.112.196] ([209.60.112.55] (may be forged)) by ns.why.net (8.8.6/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA05869; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:55:56 -0500 (CDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:03:50 -0500 Reply-To: "H. Alan Schup" Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "H. Alan Schup" Subject: Re: Jewelry in Uniform To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: I'm Baaack!!!! Looks like I missed some of the excitement while I was gone.= .. Concerning the ear rings... Let the PLC decide the dress code. After all, it is a boy-run organization. Given both sides, I bet the PLC will simply ask that the ear rings not detract from the BSA uniform. (The men and women of my generation still thinks that any male wearing female jewelry, ie ear rings, is gay regardless of which ear the ring is on. The current teenage fashion to show independance and parental objection is to wear ear rings. My generation's protest back during the teenage period was to have long hair like a girl's.) I bet the arguments against wearing ear rings today are exactly the same arguments said about long hair 30 years ago. As far as a troop banning ear rings as conflicting with 1st Amendment rights, the argument is moot. Since the US Supreme Court has ruled that burning our nation's flag is within the 1st Amendment Right of free speech, then I assume you will allow a scout to publically desecrate the Flag while in Uniform? I think not. There is a standard of conduct that the public expects of a Boy Scout, and the PLC may also be alert that wearing noticable ear rings with the uniform may be seen as disrespectful to the older generation who expect otherwise. Think about appearances and public relations. The reason why a scout does not wear his uniform while selling items in a fundraiser is so that the public can not assume that the BSA directly endorces the item being sold. What is being perceived by the public by scouts and/or leaders displaying big gaudy dangling ear rings, painted finger nails, and pony tails/braids? As far as other body part piercing... I think we all have feeling against a scout having his tongue, lips, eyelids, nose, cheeks, nipples, and other unmentionables... pierced. This is because as a group, the piercing of these body parts is a sign that the person has low self-esteem to multilate his body. The gang wannabees body pierce and tattoo themselves to stand out, and hardly anyone else does. (Of all the youth I have known that were into gangs and drugs, all of them had parts of their body pierced.) I feel the objection everyone has (including the clean-cut scouts), is that the display of such body piercing with the BSA uniform is conflicting... that the BSA should not display gang-type jewelry/colors. If a scout ends up with such parts of his body pierced, then the SM needs to have a conference with this scout to see *WHY* the boy wants to wear gang jewelry/colors? The SM should not show objection to the jewelry itself, but show concern of the scout, and talk to his parents later about the conversation. -Alan Schup _\\///_ (' o-o ') ___________________________ooOo_( )_OOoo____________________________________ H. Alan Schup (aschup@why.net) Scoutmaster...Associate Post Advisor Longhorn Council (Ft Worth TX) COPE facilitator...Rifle/Shotgun Instructor Arrow of Light; Eagle Scout '78 Climbing Tower Instructor...Rock Climbing |<--=90--<<<| "Nishkin" (#489) Radio MB (N5IJH)...Electricity MB Woodbadge SC-173 (Eagle) Electronics MB...Safety MB...Computers MB NESA Life member, Alpha Phi Omega Life Member (Theta Tau), NRA Life Member Jambo 81 TP "C" / Jambo 85 K2BSA / Jambo 89 TP "C" / Jambo 97 Action A Rifle ___________________________________Oooo_____________________________________ oooO ( ) Have patches, will trade ( ) ) / \ ( (_/ \_) From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Thu Sep 25 13:22:46 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA16758; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:22:46 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541906-23193>; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:13:48 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA23119; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:55:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1435; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:52:10 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8153; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:47:53 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 7234 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:47:03 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7233; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 23:23:57 -0500 Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 24 Sep 97 23:23:52 CDT Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id XAA15060; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 23:21:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mia-fl14-60.ix.netcom.com(206.217.148.188) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma015027; Wed Sep 24 23:21:03 1997 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199709240109.VAA27822@sparticus.bright.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <3429E5EF.64B5EFC5@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:17:51 -0400 Reply-To: Doug Roach Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Doug Roach Organization: http://www.action-net.net/T10 Subject: Re: Jewelry in Uniform X-To: Rod Smith To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Rod Smith wrote: > The situation was that while on our way to Philmont another troop > came in where we were staying with a crew chief with blue hair and > several boys with toe nail and finger nail polish on. While I was out > picking up another leader at the airport, three of my boys decide that > they wanted their toe nails and finger nails polished. The other two > leaders told them to take it off before I got back. > One boy did not and we had words to the effect that it came off or he > was > headed home. He did take it off, but him and his parents caused a > real riff > when they got home and put me on the spot about my bias about painted > nails. > I do have a couple boys that wear earrings. > > Well what it all boiled down to was that we made a rule that a boy > could not > come to the Scout meeting unless he had a Class A or B uniform on and > that > jewelry(earrings, chains, etc.), non normal colored hair and nail > polish > were not appropriate with the Scout uniform. It is unfortunate that > we > couldn't just use the Scout oath and law as direction for personal > appearance, but a lot of the scouts of today don't have the same > interpretation of what these mean or what appropriate appearance is > when you are in uniform. Larry (et al), I think using the Scout Oath and Law are entirely appropriate for direction in this instance. The only point of either one that the Scout may have violated (obedient) was rectified when you gave him your ultimatum. It is also appropriate that we as leaders be bound by the Law. Presuming the Scout to have been otherwise well-behaved and qualified to attend Philmont and presuming he has worked in Scouting to achieve the rank and training necessary to attend, I would find your threat to send him home because of nail polish to be less than 'Kind'. Since there was no Troop policy prohibiting the behavior prior to the incident, he also would have a case for his leadership not being 'Trustworthy' by your having violated the agreement you both had for you to get him there. I don't know where you're from as your sig file lists no town. Here in Miami, boys of Philmont age routinely wear earrings and other jewelry. (Nail polish, however, is a new one to me.) We have an Eagle Scout, and a fine Eagle in every sense of the term, who attended his BOR wearing a small ring in his eyebrow. Three months later, (last night in fact) he showed up to the Troop meeting with a new ring. This one is in his lip! The relationship I have with this boy after years of knowing him is such that I was able last night to get ballistic about the new hardware. He accepts my "old-guy-bias" with humility and respect but expects that I will, in the end, also respect his decision to wear such inane devices. He is one of the few boys left in our Troop of forty or so that STILL calls me and every other adult 'sir' in conversation. None of the adult leadership of our Troop likes the rings. None of the adult leadership of our Troop considers him any less than a fine Scout. In the late seventies sometime, a new Commandant of the Coast Guard issued a directive that all Coasties will no longer wear beards. An astounding number of senior enlisted personnel (mostly lifer Chiefs) either retired early or failed to re-up solely because of this arbitrary order. (Several of my friends and acquaintances among them.) How are we to expect that such a directive aimed at our youth will not be taken in the same manner? Our society gives a boy enough reasons to get out of Scouting without our adding another. Most of our Scouts do all that we ask of them.... and more. Most of our Scouts can be compared quite favorably with any other group of youth in the community. I don't think it too much for a Scout to ask of us that we accept the fact that HIS generation places some value on items of personal appearance or on music or on terminology that MY generation finds nuts. But I STILL think the face rings are ludicrous. :-) YiS, Doug Roach SA Troop 10 - South Florida Council - Miami http://www.action-net.net/T10 (ya'll come visit) mailto:djroach@ix.netcom.com "Got to keep the loonies on the Path..." ---Pink Floyd From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Thu Sep 25 13:35:59 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA20131; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:35:59 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542056-23191>; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:26:13 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA24765; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:06:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2406; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:03:43 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8675; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:11:55 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 5188 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:11:16 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5187; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:01:56 -0500 Received: from alw.nih.gov by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 24 Sep 97 13:01:50 CDT Received: from kirin.dcrt.nih.gov by alw.nih.gov (5.61/1.35(alw-2.4)) id AA04065; Wed, 24 Sep 97 14:00:00 -0400 Received: by kirin.dcrt.nih.gov (4.1/3.15) id for SCOUTS-L@tcubvm.is.tcu.edu; Wed, 24 Sep 97 13:59:58 EDT Received: via switchmail; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:59:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from end.dcrt.nih.gov via qmail ID ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:58:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from end.dcrt.nih.gov via qmail ID ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:58:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Messages.8.5.N.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.end.dcrt.nih.gov.sun4m.53 via MS.5.6.end.dcrt.nih.gov.sun4_51; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:58:46 -0400 (EDT) References: <19970923205719.26261.qmail@LuciaDiLammermoor.acsu.buffalo.edu> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:58:46 -0400 Reply-To: "rodney w. bidinger" Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "rodney w. bidinger" Subject: Re: Jewelry in Uniform To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <19970923205719.26261.qmail@LuciaDiLammermoor.acsu.buffalo.edu> Status: RO X-Status: After reading the many threads on this issue, I had to reply. I am 41 years old, retired from 20 years of service in the Air Force, have been a scout or scouter for over 27 years. My left ear is pierced and I have 6 tattooes on my arms. I also wear a religious medal. If anyone were to tell me I could not wear my earring in a scout uniform I would politely let them know that there is NOTHING and I repeat NOTHING in any publication relating to uniforming that prohibits such apparel. We are living in the 90's soon to be 21st century. Stop living in the 1800's. Earring are more of the norm to the youth of today. Personally, who cares what someone looks like. I care about what is inside of the person. As the "OLD" saying goes. Beauty is only skin deep!!!!!! I live by the Scout Oath and Laws and no matter what I look like will change that. If someone doen't like the way I look, they can look elsewhere. Two of my sons have earrings. If any unit were to say they couldn't wear them. I would either move to another unit or that particular unit would be hearing from a lawyer. Because it is a violation of anyone right to expression. Just the same way as the Supreme Court ruled on the case of flag burning. (Of which I strongly disagree but that is what I have to live with). Enough steam let off. YIS, Rod Bidinger, USAF Ret. Cubmaster, Pack 1111 Baltimore Area Council (BAC) Eagle Scout Class 1969 Detroit Area Council Cub Scout District Training Staff, BAC Hanover, Maryland From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Thu Sep 25 13:37:31 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA20572; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:37:31 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541558-23188>; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:29:28 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA24808; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:07:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2422; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:03:55 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8860; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:19:58 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 4317 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:19:18 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4314; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:02:32 -0500 Received: from emout30.mail.aol.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 24 Sep 97 10:02:27 CDT Received: (from root@localhost) by emout30.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id LAA08161 for SCOUTS-L@tcubvm.is.tcu.edu; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:00:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970924105151_271228533@emout13.mail.aol.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:00:34 -0400 Reply-To: RAGerhard@aol.com Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Robert Gerhard Subject: Re: Jewelry in Uniform To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 97-09-23, bec@pipeline.com wrote: << I had a good friend who started to wear an earring way back when it was much more the exceptional behavior. I told him at one point that it was a good thing I had gotten to know him before he started wearing it because otherwise I might not have taken the time to get to know him. I know that the prejudice is mine and is my problem, but that doesn't stop the impact it can have on the Scout's relationships with those around him. >> Today, however, the presence of earrings does not have the stigma it did many years ago, when I got my first piercing. Then, as now, I did not wear my earrings when in uniform, but purely for personal reasons. (I just don't see them as part of the uniform.) I mentioned this to my Unit Commish once and she asked why not...after all, she wore them with her uniform. This really took me by surprise because she was a fairly conservative woman somewhat older than myself. It taught me the lesson I keep trying to teach others: Don't let looks deceive you. I had also mentioned that I often felt uncomfortable in uniform with my (at that time) very long hair. And it was my fellow Scouters who assured me that they thought nothing of it and found nothing wrong with it. As Scouts and Scouters, we should be looking for, exposing and developing the best in people regardless of their outer appearance. Perhaps, though, changes in what society accepts is what is at the root of this arguement. There was a time when long hair, beards, tattoos, shaved heads and earrings signified certain lifestyles, most of which, admittedly, had negative impact. These are all, however, common to many different lifestyles now. They were all, once, signs of rebellion. Us rebels are now productive members of society - police officers, office workers, yes, even Scouters (which many of us were all along). Now kids pierce other things for shock value, or make statements in other ways. It's all part of a person's desire to express some aspect of their personality. IMHO, we should be looking at what the societal norm is and accepting that, AS LONG AS it does not detract from the uniform. A large necklace is fine - under the uniform. If it is placed over the uniform, that would be seen as part of the uniform (as WB beads, for example). Some items seem to be worn purely for shock value - noserings, eyebrow or lip piercings. Purple hair. These items clearly make themselves the center of attention rather than the uniform. Other items - rings, bracelets, earrings - should be fine so long as they are tasteful. Which, or course, opens a whole new can of worms - who defines tasteful? All we really need to ask is that they show the uniform the respect it deserves by not detracting from it (or "enhancing" it). One more aspect of this subject: Kids with logos "carved" into their hair. When does that become unacceptable? As an aside, at a recent Roundtable I looked around the room and discovered that I had more earrings than anyone in the room. If nothing else, I figured that was worth a bead... Robert Gerhard Cubmaster & Webelos ADL Pack 83, Ft. Worth, TX From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Thu Sep 25 13:00:57 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from server1.capaccess.org (server1.CapAccess.org [207.91.115.5]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA09795; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:00:57 -0400 Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by server1.capaccess.org (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with ESMTP id MAA30552; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:54:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542541-23197>; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:53:04 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA23875; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:00:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1897; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:57:02 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8452; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:02:25 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 6000 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:01:35 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5998; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:48:25 -0500 Received: from imsnet.net by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 24 Sep 97 15:48:16 CDT Received: from imssys.imssys.com.imssys.com by imsnet.net (8.6.10/SMI-4.1) id UAA23512; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 20:47:17 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199709240109.VAA27822@sparticus.bright.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <34297889.3FB2@imssys.imssys.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:31:05 -0400 Reply-To: "Timothy O'Leary" Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "Timothy O'Leary" Subject: Re: Jewelry in Uniform To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: I do not see any place where there wearing of jewelry, or of nailpolish, or whatever, violates either the Scout Oath or Scout Law. Kids have got to express thenmselves in one way or another, and in the teenage years, need to find ways to "noconform" to adults while conforming with their peers. The earrings and nail polish give htem a chance to do this. Scouting needs to be a safe haven, run by the boys. I don't like the nailpolish and earrings, but would much rather have my son wearing these things than doing drugs, having sex, drinking or smoking. Times and fashions change - I have no reason to believe that mine are any more nearly right than his.... Let's end the thread, and get back to how we can let these Scouts run their program - with us helping them and keeping them safe, and sticking with the Oath and Law. If I can encourage "Trustworthy" - not exactly "with it" in todays society, then I can tolerate earrings, which are.... Tim O'Leary, CC Troop 772, among other hats.... From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Thu Sep 25 13:04:18 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from server1.capaccess.org (server1.CapAccess.org [207.91.115.5]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA10566; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:04:18 -0400 Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by server1.capaccess.org (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with ESMTP id MAA30664; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:52:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542705-23198>; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:51:08 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA23658; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:58:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1767; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:55:59 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8380; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:59:03 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 6559 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:58:25 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6558; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 18:13:49 -0500 Received: from wilma.widomaker.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 24 Sep 97 18:13:47 CDT Received: from rich95 [206.161.154.157] by wilma.widomaker.com with smtp (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0xE0bG-0007fM-00; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:12:06 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <34299E5D.262A@offpro.net> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:12:29 -0400 Reply-To: "R.F.Locke" Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "R.F.Locke" Organization: Office/PRO Technologies Subject: Re: Jewelry Thread X-To: "Thomas Heavey, Sr." To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: >From the amazing number of posts on the subject, I'd have to say that the earrings, toe nail polish, tatoos etc. etc. are having their desired effect................ "Hey there adult, ----- Look at me....... .....Notice me............. ......react to me... Sounds like one of those "who cares ?" problems that goes away when ignored. Does anyone recall when long hair was an absolutely outrageous thing .... Rich Locke Advisor Post 486 Williamsburg, VA From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Thu Sep 25 13:06:06 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA11144; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:06:06 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541951-23197>; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:57:05 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA22820; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:52:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1266; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:49:52 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8036; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:42:39 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 7877 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:41:48 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7875; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:07:47 -0500 Approved-By: EIDSON@TCUBVM Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5836; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:20:11 -0500 Received: from andover by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 24 Sep 97 15:19:35 CDT Received: from andover_mail.andover1 ([207.76.105.25]) by andover_main.andovercontrols.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-29328U510) with ESMTP id AAA160 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:13:17 -0400 Received: by ANDOVER_MAIL with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:14:26 -0400 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:14:23 -0400 Reply-To: "Godbout, Marc" Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "Godbout, Marc" Subject: Re: Jewelry in Uniform To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: A couple comments about this body-piercing stuff. I know that ear-piercing is pretty safe and has been done for years to people of all ages. But I've heard that piercing other body parts, such as the tongue, can be dangerous. Is this true? If so, then should we allow a boy to endorse self-mutillation for the younger ones to follow the lead? Also, "A Scout is Obedient" should be checked. I don't know about body-piercing, other than ears are perfectly legal at any age, but I believe that in NH tattoos are not legal for anyone under 18, even with parental permission. FWIW, my opinion is that if it's safe, clean, and legal, then I'm all for allowing it. Marc Godbout SM Troop 98 ASM Troop 412 Derry, NH http://www.tiac.net/users/godbout/troop98 From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Thu Sep 25 13:06:41 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA11311; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:06:41 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541810-23191>; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:57:29 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA23793; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:59:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1848; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:56:26 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8402; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:59:58 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 6455 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:59:19 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6454; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:27:44 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 24 Sep 97 17:27:42 CDT Received: from mail1.centuryinter.net (mail1.centuryinter.net) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IO11TI039S00296L@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for SCOUTS-L@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:26:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cen23981.centuryinter.net (ppp0040.ra.centuryinter.net [208.215.226.60]) by mail1.centuryinter.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA11291 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:25:52 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: cen23982@mail.pe.centuryinter.net MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: <199709242225.RAA11291@mail1.centuryinter.net> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:25:52 -0500 Reply-To: Mark Arend Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Mark Arend Subject: Re: Jewelry in Uniform X-To: SCOUTS-L@TCU.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: >Is an >earring really a good reason for losing a Scout? Is a necklace? A nose ring? >A pierced tongue? Had to weigh in on this. A couple of years ago when we went to the Sea Base I was surprised to see a staff member with a pierced nipple. Of course, you couldn't see it when he was in uniform ;-) The older I get the more tolerant of stuff like this I become. (or maybe I'm just getting more tired & worn down) Mark W. Arend Beaver Dam Community Library 311 N. Spring St. Outside of a dog, a book is Beaver Dam, Wisc. 53916 man's best friend. Inside of (920) 887-4631 (fax 887-4633) a dog it's too dark to read. --Groucho Marx www.centuryinter.net/bdlib/ Scoutmaster, Troop 736 mailto:arend@centuryinter.net From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Fri Sep 26 09:36:13 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA28490; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:36:13 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542480-24819>; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:27:43 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA22025; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:30:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5685; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:27:45 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5349; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:29:10 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 0382 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:28:13 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0381; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:13:22 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 25 Sep 97 12:13:20 CDT Received: from sisko.se.wp.cc.nc.us (sisko.se.wp.cc.nc.us) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IO255875OG0027OJ@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for SCOUTS-L@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:11:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Luminare.wp.cc.nc.us ([198.85.218.29]) by sisko.se.wp.cc.nc.us (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA16559 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:49:47 -0400 X-Sender: tudorj@mail.wp.cc.nc.us MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970925131133.006b8f94@mail.wp.cc.nc.us> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:11:33 -0400 Reply-To: John Tudor Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: John Tudor Subject: Re: Jewelry in Uniform X-To: SCOUTS-L@TCU.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: One final comment from me about jewelry on scouts.. I have been trashed about my comments by people who have asked if we are going to ban earrings on female leaders, or watches, wedding bands etc. Earrings on females, as well as watches, and wedding bands are an accepted part of our culture. Earrings on males are not. They give the impression (rightly or wrongly) that the person wearing it has an attitude which I feel is not consistent with the attitude which scouting should project. That person may not have that attitude at all, but the impression is given anyway. We need to be aware of the impression we give. True, the false impression is in the mind of the observer, but we still need to be aware of it. My feelings on piercing extend to the point that If I go into any food service establishment, and find my server with any piercings other than ears, I will leave. Sorry, but nose, eyelid, lip, and other visible piercings just turn my stomach, and I cannot eat. Just my opinion for what it's worth (not much). I will now leave this discussion up to others. John Tudor ASM Troop 184 Morganton, NC Troop 184 Web Site http://www.bsa.net/nc/t184 Wood Badge SR-201 1997 QBSA Radio 1997, News Director I used ta be a "Bad News Bear".....I can hardly "Bear" it!!! "Try not, Do, or Do Not, There is no try!" YODA, The Empire Strikes Back mailto:tudorj@wp.cc.nc.us Member DNRC "Eny eereras in typin are a sign of creativiti by the aouther end knot necessseserily a sign uf typin abilitie." :) From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Fri Sep 26 09:36:48 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA28647; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:36:48 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542983-24824>; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:28:25 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA21088; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:21:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5272; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:18:28 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5145; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:21:05 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 0903 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:20:18 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0902; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:58:38 -0500 Approved-By: EIDSON@TCUBVM Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9132; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:14:26 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 25 Sep 97 09:14:14 CDT Received: from bbs.cybrzn.com by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IO1YUZX5EO00292H@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for scouts-l@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:11:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from LOCALNAME [207.67.107.67] by bbs.cybrzn.com with smtp id AJAPDJFJ ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:15:58 -0500 MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-ROUTED: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:16:24 -0500 X-TCP-IDENTITY: Paul_Ferris Message-ID: <342A8D4C.33F3@cybrzn.com> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:11:56 -0700 Reply-To: Paul Ferris Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Paul Ferris Subject: Re: Jewelry in Uniform X-To: scouts-l@tcu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: > > It is the content of the character, not the outward appearance that is > important. Bruce E. Cobern said: > That's certainly true, in theory. Unfortunately, many times decisions > made about people based upon outward appearances and they never get a >chance to demonstrate their character. That is something I often tell >the Scouts. What they wear and how they comport themselves can send >messages which often are NOT true reflections of their character. >I had a good friend who started to wear an earring way back when it was >much more the exceptional behavior. I told him at one point that it was >a good thing I had gotten to know him before he started wearing it because >otherwise I might not have taken the time to get to know him. I know >that the prejudice is mine and is my problem, but that doesn't stop the >impact it can have on the Scout's relationships with those around him. >(I currently react similarly to those who wear their baseball caps >backwards. To me, rightly or wrongly, it conveys a message of an >attitude. So, given the choice, I tend to avoid those with that kind of >attitude.) >Just one additional comment about the very often subconscious impact >certain conduct can have. Well said Bruce, I agree 100 percent. When I raised my four boys and six girls I told them that prior to the 1920s it did not matter much what you looked like, everyone knew your parents, brothers and sisters and all your relatives. Your character was easy to check out. Today, (rightly or wrongly) we must make quick decisons based on what we see. As you said Bruce, the movers and shakers in todays world don't have time to get to know you better. The ear ring wearers and cap backwards types are the first to be weeded out. Do you really want to be one of those weeded out? All six of mine are college grads and have successful careers. YIS, Paul Ferris From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Fri Sep 26 08:25:12 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA07979; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:25:12 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542765-24819>; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:16:38 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA20632; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:15:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5096; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:12:27 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5024; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:15:45 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 0994 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:15:15 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0993; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:17:18 -0500 Received: from sr.radiks.net by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 25 Sep 97 14:17:11 CDT Received: from radiks.net (dial207.radiks.net [207.3.67.91]) by sr.radiks.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id OAA04954 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:14:56 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <342AB942.B46AB7F@radiks.net> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:19:30 -0500 Reply-To: Doug Adams Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Doug Adams Subject: The wearing of jewelry To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: OK, at the risk of getting severely flamed, I'll throw in my 2 cents; First off, let me say three words "Image Is Everything"! We interact with other people on a constant basis, and people are judged on their outward appearance. It's human nature to be narrow minded. No one goes to a job interview with blue hair and painted nails and expects to leave a positive impression on anyone. In the first 10 seconds within meeting a complete stranger, we've more or less formed a positive or negative opinion about that person. The majority of responses I've seen on this list would have one believe that it's perfectly OK to have earrings, etc. But, the wearing of costume jewelry by men and boys is not as widely accepted a practice as they'd have you believe. In our little community of 35,000 plus, a boy wears an earring at his own peril, with a majority of the comments directed at his sexuality. This is NOT a way to be accepted into a peer group! While we're on the subject of peer groups, Boy Scouting, as sad as it is for me to say, is NOT an accepted peer-group among youth from 13 years of age and over (nod your head if you can relate to this statement). Most would rather pretend that they don't know you than admit they're active in Scouting (as much as they might enjoy it otherwise). OK, where is this going? If, in order to be accepted by one's peers, if it becomes necessary to wear an earring, painted nails, etc., then so be it, outside of scouts. Kids want more than anything to be accepted by their peer group. I am not so close-minded that I shut my eyes to the issue and pretend it doesn't go on; times and attitudes change. However, IMHO, if they're participating in a scout activity, they're representing the Boy Scouts of America (and no one else), whether they want to believe it or not. We send a message when we're in the public eye, and that image should reflect positively. Let's remember that uniform means "uniform"! Ok, getting off my soapbox.... Doug Adams Cubmaster, Pack 27 Bellevue, NE From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Fri Sep 26 09:33:53 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA27858; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:33:53 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542888-24824>; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:25:46 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA21197; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:22:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5320; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:19:46 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5171; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:22:04 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 0866 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:21:26 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0865; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:54:05 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 25 Sep 97 13:54:01 CDT Received: from emf.emf.net (emf.emf.net) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IO28O1H9GW002IC4@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for SCOUTS-L@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:52:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from troop24@localhost) by emf.emf.net (K/K) id LAA28632 for SCOUTS-L@TCU.EDU; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: <199709251852.LAA28632@emf.emf.net> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:52:15 -0700 Reply-To: Alan Houser Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Alan Houser Subject: Re: Jewelry in Uniform X-To: SCOUTS-L@TCU.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: My goodness! I haven't seen such a hornet's nest stirred up here in some time. I think the message that should be getting to the Troop Committee is that when they are willing to forgo wearing rings, earrings, necklaces, tie tacks, and cuff links, then they can SUGGEST the same to the Patrol Leaders' Council. As several folks pointed out, this is not life or death here, and it's not even a job interview, as some have offered. Otherwise, what do you say to the Scout whose father wears an earring? Or to the former Scoutmaster, a former Navy submariner who wore one himself, as did his two sons? Believe me, no one in the troop wanted to emulate those two! And it is kind of amusing to reflect on a Scouter with four rows of knots and every other conceivable patch location covered with a piece of embroidered fabric (including the last dozen Quality Unit patches) to tell a young Scout that a simple stud in his ear or neon green nail polish is inappropriate and ostentatious. As for hair, my philosophy is "Let them enjoy it while they have it!" For myself, I seldom wear anything more than my watch and, when I can't get out of wearing a tie, something to keep it from flapping around. YiS, Alan R. Houser ** troop24@emf.net ** Scoutmaster, Berkeley, California, Troop 24 ** ** WWW page ** http://www.emf.net/~troop24/t24.html ** Scoutmaster, Mt. Diablo Silverado Council Jamboree Troop #637 ** http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Trails/9637/ ** From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Fri Sep 26 16:45:45 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id QAA28718; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:45:45 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542503-24818>; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:33:21 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA29748; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:31:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5544; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:28:25 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8919; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:30:28 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 8628 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:29:34 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8627; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:19:50 -0500 Approved-By: EIDSON@TCUBVM Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7543; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:21:34 -0500 Received: from x4.boston.juno.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 26 Sep 97 14:21:02 CDT Received: (from blainej@juno.com) by x4.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id P\V04354; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:15:51 EDT References: <3.0.3.32.19970925131133.006b8f94@mail.wp.cc.nc.us> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-8,12-13,19-20,25-26,31-34,39-40,42 Message-ID: <19970926.141716.14838.6.blainej@juno.com> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:08:07 -0500 Reply-To: "Blaine A. Jackson" Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "Blaine A. Jackson" Subject: Re: Jewelry in Uniform To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:11:33 -0400 John Tudor writes: >One final comment from me about jewelry on scouts.. >I have been trashed about my comments by people who have asked if we >are going to ban earrings on female leaders, or watches, wedding bands >etc. >Earrings on females, as well as watches, and wedding bands are an >accepted part of our culture. Earrings on males are not. Maybe, maybe not. "Acceptable" is an elusive and varying standard. 40 years ago, wearing my hair in a "buzz cut" was not only care free, but quite acceptable, and still seems to be so today. If, however, I call the same haircut "skinhead" it is not acceptable in most circles. Certainly, wearing native american items such as chokers, etc. is not accepted as normal adult male attire, but I suspect that most scouters have been scene wearing some form of it. It would be difficult to explain to the scouts in my troop why earrings are banned when another local SM often wears one larger than any of my wife's. (And since he is also larger than my wife, I am not going to tell him to stop.) What do you do if a scout continues to wear an earring to troop meetings. Do you suspend him from the troop? Are you prepared to defend a law suit alleging that you prevented a scout from reaching Eagle rank because you excluded him from scout functions for wearing an earring? (BTW, you would lose.) I cannot find any way that wearing an earring is prohibited by the Scout Law. My own son comes directly to troop meetings from football practice, drenched in sweat; THAT is offensive, but I would rather have him come. Our job is to attract boys to scouting, not make up rules about insignificant matters in order to keep them away. Blaine They give the impression (rightly or wrongly) that the person wearing it has an attitude which I feel is not consistent with the attitude which scouting should project. That person may not have that attitude at all, but the impression is given anyway. We need to be aware of the impression we give. > >True, the false impression is in the mind of the observer, but we still need to be aware of it. From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Fri Sep 26 17:51:39 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id RAA15540; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:51:39 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541603-24820>; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:40:33 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA28906; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:21:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5244; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:18:39 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8545; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:17:32 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 9894 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:16:35 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9893; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:22:32 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 25 Sep 97 11:22:30 CDT Received: from bbs.pixelation.com (206.158.94.10) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IO23D5RSQ8002D3J@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for scouts-l@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:20:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from SGTRock.Hopkinsville.com [206.158.94.159] by bbs.pixelation.com with smtp id ALBOAGFE ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:30:06 -0600 MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-ROUTED: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:30:34 -0600 X-TCP-IDENTITY: Butterbuns X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 Message-ID: <01IO23D6F3UQ002D3J@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:38:06 -0500 Reply-To: Butterbuns Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Butterbuns Subject: Jewelry X-To: Scouts To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Just my opinion folks... I think the only real concern is safety. There are some activities that could be hazardous when jewelry is worn. ie, necklaces that could get caught, etc. I think, that in such cases, the boys should be made aware of the danger and asked to please remove said items. Dee From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Fri Sep 26 17:52:08 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id RAA15714; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:52:08 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541246-24820>; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:43:54 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA29285; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:25:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5370; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:22:27 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8728; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:23:00 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 8121 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:22:24 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8120; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:59:50 -0500 Received: from haleakala.aloha.net by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 26 Sep 97 14:59:21 CDT Received: from haleakala.aloha.net (oahu-112.u.aloha.net [207.12.0.112]) by haleakala.aloha.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA16833; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:57:27 -1000 (HST) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <342AB942.B46AB7F@radiks.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <342C13F2.F3AA24D7@aloha.net> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:58:42 -1000 Reply-To: Pete Thornton Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Pete Thornton Organization: Radio Shack Subject: Re: The wearing of jewelry X-To: Doug Adams To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Doug- I think you have missed the bubble somewhere in your training. Image is not everything, It is only a small part. Remember that the scout that comes from a junior enlisted military family may go for a year or more without being able to get into a complete uniform. Is he any less a scout and a valuable asset to your troop? The fact that a boy excercises his individuality, while distasteful to you, is one of the life lessions we do try to teach the boys. I feel that it is a family decission and that we should concern ourselves with the important areas, quality program, enjoyable experience, citizenship and sportsmanship, team work and leadership. As well as striving to make them a quality member of society. YIS Pete From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Fri Sep 26 17:53:48 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id RAA16161; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:53:48 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541745-24818>; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:45:54 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA26809; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:55:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4437; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:52:04 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7992; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:54:14 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 6150 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:53:42 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6149; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:46:11 -0500 Received: from sr.radiks.net by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 26 Sep 97 09:46:09 CDT Received: from radiks.net (dial155.radiks.net [207.3.67.38]) by sr.radiks.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id JAA19758; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:43:50 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <342BCB3B.57A37AFF@radiks.net> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:48:28 -0500 Reply-To: Doug Adams Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Doug Adams Subject: Re: The wearing of jewelry X-To: Cheryl Singhal To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Cheryl, The point that I was trying to get across is that what a boy does on his own time is just that - if boys in a scout's peer group wear earrings, and he feels he has to have one to be accepted, what right have we to interefere? We don't choose his friends, or tell him what to wear to school, or direct his personal life. That's for his parents. However, what he does in Scouts should reflect postively. Anyone in a uniformed organization (Police, Fire Department, Scouts) must be prepared to make certain sacrifices in order to represent themselves and their organization favorably to outside parties. There's a reason it's called a "standard". I'm not so narrow minded that I just assume that every boy with an earring is a "bad kid". But I'm not everybody else. And it is human nature to prejudge (ugly fact but true). Doug Adams Cubmaster, Pack 27 Bellevue, NE From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Fri Sep 26 18:06:04 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id SAA18963; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:06:04 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542092-24816>; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:55:18 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA28764; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:18:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5174; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:15:59 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8491; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:15:25 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 9837 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:14:27 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9836; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:12:01 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 25 Sep 97 11:11:59 CDT Received: from node1.frontiernet.net (node1.frontiernet.net) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IO2304KXQO002D2F@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for scouts-l@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:10:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (as5200-2-13.roc.ny.frontiernet.net [209.130.134.214]) by node1.frontiernet.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA108380 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:36:01 -0400 MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win16; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <342AA229.45A5@frontiernet.net> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:40:57 -0700 Reply-To: John Conley Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: John Conley Subject: Jewelry thread X-To: scouts-l@tcu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Well, I've just finished poring over the insignia guide, and there's absolutely no mention of underwear! I guess that means we can't wear any with our uniforms! Seriously, I think it undermines our position with the Scouts to disallow jewely or nail polish for no reason except that it bugs us. I imagine it bugged a lot of Scoutmasters back in the early 70's when my generation started wearing longer hair, or when we switched from "Eddie Haskell" style to those darned "John Lennon" style eyeglasses. As Bruce Cobern and others have pointed out, though, there is a very real image concern. Personally, when I see someone with his baseball cap on backwards, he's starting his relationship with me with one strike against him. (Fine talk from a former non-conformist, huh?) I've used a Scoutmaster's minute along the following lines to address public behavior in general; I'll try to condense it to an outline for the sake of brevity: "When you go out in public in your uniform, people are automatically going to assume certain positive things about you. YOU didn't do any- thing to earn that reputation, it was earned by the Scouts who came before you. Please show some consideration for the Scouts who will come after you by leaving that reputation as good as you found it." YiS, John Conley Arrowhead District Commissioner Finger Lakes Council (NY) *Better to build boys than mend men* From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Fri Sep 26 18:21:45 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id SAA23012; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:21:45 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541890-24824>; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:14:10 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA25702; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:41:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4021; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:38:42 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7706; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:42:32 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 6412 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:41:12 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6411; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:29:22 -0500 Received: from omeganet.es by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 26 Sep 97 11:29:18 CDT Received: from omeganet by omeganet.es (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA22089; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:22:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.50) Message-ID: <199709261722.SAA22089@omeganet.es> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:29:56 +0000 Reply-To: breeden Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List Comments: Authenticated sender is From: breeden Subject: jewelry/ swimming To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: on the wearing jewelry issue. i don't think we should worry about the jewelry as much as we should worry about teaching the boys to accept people as they are and to teach them that who and what a person is is inside that person. we should open our minds and our hearts to find out about the person inside first and then worry about impression. yes i realize that we usually have an impression within the first few minutes of meeting a person, but wouldn't the world be a better place if we can teach people to look beyond outside appearances and learn about the person inside. we might be surprised.i have seen some people that on first impression would probably make someone say forget it and walk away, however upon knowing these people or kids i have found that appearances are VERY decieving. can't we learn to get around looks. on the swimming requirement. i believe that the sense of accomplishment that a scout can recieve by completing this requirement instead of being waived out weighs all. if a scout is having a problem with swimming whether being afraid of the water or just inability to swim then he should be encouraged to work with this to satisfy the requirements. i have a son who has a problem with the swimming requirement, he didn't know how to swim. it wasn't because we had not taught him, it was because we have not lived in any area where swimming was available to teach him. he has since learned to swim and is looking forward to passing his swim requirement this weekend.i am sure he can do it. the sense of accomplishment and success at being able to do something he couldn't do a year ago has made him stronger. yes some of the boys his age are ahead of him, however theis has not slowed him down. when he passes this requirement he will be ready for his star and almost ready for his life ranks. he will only have to do the time requirement. he has worked very hard at getting ready for the swimming requirement and i am very proud of him. but he has not let that slow him done. he has worked very hard to get other requirements done so he can catch up to his age group. i think that ANY waiver other than medical only cheats the scout. there is no reason they can't work on the same things as their age group while working out their swimming problems. my son has not been defeated by having to wait, he has become stronger and more determined to succeed. just my cents worth (you decide) k. breeden troop 73 asm pack 280 committee member mother of proud scouts.