From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Fri Dec 5 19:24:50 1997 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from server1.capaccess.org (server1.CapAccess.org [207.91.115.5]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id TAA10538; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 19:24:50 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by server1.capaccess.org (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with SMTP id TAA37020; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 19:17:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2957; Fri, 05 Dec 97 18:17:30 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6673; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:17:48 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 6646 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:15:22 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6645; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:14:46 -0500 Received: from imo09.mail.aol.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 05 Dec 97 18:14:40 CDT Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv10) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 19:12:34 EST Reply-To: Adcdave Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Adcdave Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Volunteer attitudes about Professional Scouters To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 97-12-05 11:51:44 EST, Paul.Meyermann@UNI.EDU writes: << In conversation with scouters absent any professionals, I have noticed a theme of negative attitudes regarding the professionals they must deal with. I have always thought that this was counter productive and often unwarranted. Why is this? >> I have observed this to be largley due to ignorance about what a professional is supposed to do. Most people have very little idea of how little these people get paid, or how much time they spend at their jobs. As a member of the District Committee or Commissioner's Staff you find out that they typically spend about 60 hours a week. And that most of them also have volunteer jobs also. I have also found that professionals get blamed for a lot of decisions made by "those people down at the Scout Office", when these decisions are made by volunteers on various operating committees, and final approval is given by the Council Board. These people are all volunteers, and they hire and fire the professionals. Of course professional scouters are also human. This means they are not perfect, and some are better than others. This is also true of the volunteers, so cut them a little slack, and remember we are supposed to work together. YIS, Dave Hills From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Fri Dec 5 21:17:23 1997 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from server1.capaccess.org (server1.CapAccess.org [207.91.115.5]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id VAA01290; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:17:23 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by server1.capaccess.org (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with SMTP id VAA36664; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:10:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2996; Fri, 05 Dec 97 20:10:03 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7009; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 20:10:16 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 7003 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 20:08:33 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7002; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 20:08:32 -0500 Received: from ocsnet.ocsonline.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 05 Dec 97 20:08:14 CDT Received: from ocs98.ocsonline.com (ocs98.ocsonline.com [208.128.252.98]) by ocsnet.ocsonline.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA11903 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:30:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by ocs98.ocsonline.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BD01C2.08288B80@ocs98.ocsonline.com>; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:09:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <01BD01C2.08288B80@ocs98.ocsonline.com> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:09:03 -0500 Reply-To: "Charles R. Stone" Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "Charles R. Stone" Subject: Re: Volunteer attitudes toward professionals To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Norman MacLeod made an interesting reply to the "us v. them" question, = but I do beg to differ with him on one point. He said that in many = countries, there are very few Scout professionals, who rely heavily on = dedicated part-time volunteers to administer program. That sounded = accurate. The part I differ with is when he said, "however, the BSA is = not one of these". Currently, there are over 4 million young people involved in BSA = programs. There are several hundred thousand adult leaders serving those = young people. To the best of my knowledge, there are only about 5,000 = BSA professional scouters. If my calculator works, that means there are = on average about 1,000 youth and 100 volunteers for every professional. Norman, are you sure BSA doesn't qualify? :) YiS, Rob Stone "I used to be a Bear," SE610 From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Fri Dec 5 10:57:58 1997 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id KAA28961; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:57:58 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2468; Fri, 05 Dec 97 09:50:56 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3808; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:51:12 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 3790 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:49:42 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3789; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:49:41 -0500 Received: from cobra.uni.edu by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 05 Dec 97 09:49:32 CDT Received: from ccmail.uni.edu ([134.161.224.4]) by uni.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #24259) with SMTP id <01IQT6U9NYE68ZV3TO@uni.edu> for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:48:32 CST Received: from cc:Mail by ccmail.uni.edu id AA881344001; Fri, 05 Dec 1997 09:45:48 -0600 (CST) Encoding: 45 Text Message-ID: <9711058813.AA881344001@ccmail.uni.edu> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:45:48 -0600 Reply-To: Paul.Meyermann@UNI.EDU Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Paul Meyermann Subject: Volunteer attitudes about Professional Scouters To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: The recent discussion regarding 'qualifications' for professional scouters has been very interesting but raised a question in my mind regarding attitudes of volunteers towards Professional Scouters. I am not a professional scouter and have only gotten to know three or four during my 5 years as a scouter. In conversation with scouters absent any professionals, I have noticed a theme of negative attitudes regarding the professionals they must deal with. I have always thought that this was counter productive and often unwarranted. Why is this? Is it because as volunteers working for free, there is a resentment that they "do it for the money" while volunteers work for free and therefore have noble motives? Is it because they are not providing the support and services actually needed by scouters? Is it because there job description calls for them to cajole volunteers into giving ever increasing amounts of time to the program and then to also support it financially? Is it because as a group they do not have the skills and experience needed to be successful? Is it because we wish that they would take responsibility for the making sure that volunteer run activities run smoothly and successfully? If I am alone in these observations feel free to ignore this message. If you have noticed this negative bias, it is worth a discussion on how it could be improved. Paul M. From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Fri Dec 5 12:58:39 1997 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id MAA01977; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 12:58:39 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2586; Fri, 05 Dec 97 11:51:34 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4522; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:51:54 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 4516 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:51:13 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4515; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:51:12 -0500 Received: from magpage.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 05 Dec 97 11:50:50 CDT Received: from gaelwolf (modem060.magpage.com [204.179.92.110]) by magpage.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA11937; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 12:49:37 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: <00c001bd01a5$a7747220$795cb3cc@gaelwolf> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 12:45:58 -0500 Reply-To: Norman MacLeod Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Norman MacLeod Subject: Re: Volunteer attitudes about Professional Scouters X-To: Paul.Meyermann@UNI.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: In answer to Paul's questions about attitudes of volunteer Leaders toward the professional corps of Scouting, I would have to say that it is highly variable by country. In most Scout Associations, there is a VERY small professional corps, who are primarily responsible for those points of administration that cannot be taken care of by part-time volunteers. This is not the case with others, such as the BSA. The BSA provides its adult and youth members with a wide variety of resources, perhaps more than are available to almost any other Scout Association in the world, in some ways. At this point, it may be worth noting that B-P was very wary of large professional corps in Scouting Associations, feeling, I think, that Scouting works best when delivered by people who are wholly dedicated to Scouting to the extent that they will go out in any weather, do it for no pay, and enjoy it in the process. Scouting, to him, was not meant as a means of personal advancement, but as a service to mankind...with the best (most noble?) kind of service being that which we offer without expectation of recompense. Another point to consider is that, in most Scout Associations, the rules governing Scouting (most often referred to as something along the lines of "Policy, Organisation, and Rules) is made available to any adult member or parent who wishes to look at or purchase a copy. The rules to play by in the BSA are, I understand, much more difficult to come by, which can easily lead to the rapid development of an "us in the trenches" vs "them what are keeping the rules from us" mentality. Please note that this situation would appear to come from a corporate policy, rather than anything at the local council level. (Not too long ago I observed a BSA professional holding up a red three-ring binder during a training session and telling the course attendees that it told him how to accomplish any aspect of his job...perhaps the Red Binder is the BSA version of the POR?) There is, of course, the thought that, since we as members pay the salaries of the professional corps, they are actually supposed to be working for us. This works well as a concept in most Scout Associations. However, in those where the "hired hands" are keeping the rules to play by "confidential", the uneasy feeling that the workers have taken the corporation away from the owners when they weren't looking can become an uneasy feeling that can, again, become a point of division between volunteer and professional. It matters not that the pro is a really wonderful, friendly person to some (or even a friend...); what matters is that the volunteer feels as if he or she is being treated by the corporation as being somehow subordinate to the person whose salary the Scout Group is helping to pay. Just about every single professional Scouter I have ever met has been doing the best he or she knew how for the youth membership and the volunteers who are doing their level best to provide a positive influence in the lives of the young people they work with. There were a very few, though, who didn't really seem to be taking the Scout Promise (Oath) and Law as something they, too, were expected to live by. This was often at least partially the result of "bean counters" having undue influence in bonuses and promotion opportunities (the "you need to have x% membership growth per year in your District, and you need to show an X% increase in donations over last year if you ever hope to advance in your job" approach to management...). I have also known volunteers who resented the pros "meddling", even though the District or Council (or equivalent) were involved as a result of the volunteer not providing a programme in accordance with the POR... There are a few who become professional Scouters as a way to earn a salary. Fortunately, these usually leave Scouting in a reasonably short time, though they can do a lot of damage, even with a short tenure... Just a few random thoughts... Norman ====================================================================== GAELIC WOLF CONSULTING Medical Informatics Internet Presence Strategy and Design http://www.gaelwolf.com/ ***************************************************** Home of the Gaelic Wolf Scouting Pages as a community involvement courtesy http://www.gaelwolf.com/gaelwolf/home.htm ====================================================================== From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Fri Dec 5 11:36:17 1997 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id LAA10679; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:36:17 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2531; Fri, 05 Dec 97 10:29:25 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4189; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:29:46 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 4181 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:28:45 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4180; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:28:43 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 05 Dec 97 10:27:30 CDT Received: from rockland.courierpub.com (rockland.courierpub.com) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IQT877TB8G002176@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for Scouts-L@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 05 Dec 1997 10:27:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [204.117.39.167] ([204.117.39.167]) by rockland.courierpub.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA16905 for ; Fri, 05 Dec 1997 12:35:05 -0500 X-Sender: dgrima@rockland.courierpub.com MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:26:14 -0400 Reply-To: David Grima Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: David Grima Subject: attitudes to professionals X-To: Scouts-L@tcu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Paul Meyermann talked about the attitude we volunteers have toward professional scouters, and how negative many pros find us to be. he makes a darn good point, and exposes some of our unwillingness to genuinely believe in Scouting's gentle code. It is true all over the place that unit volunteers talk about us and them, meaning those damned professionals down at district. It is pretty bad, but you hear it everywhere. District won't do this for us, district won't do that for us. They, they, they. I am Cubmaster for P206 in Rockland, Maine, and my father-in-law was a scout executive for many years in New Hampshire, Maine and New Jersey. He was paid next to nothing, and was expected to give everything he had. He was glad to do it, but that is not my point. Our council, Pine Tree, recently hired a young district executive for our Downeast District, called Ken Martin. He is still getting his feet wet as far as the job is concerned, but some of us consider it our job to help him. When he comes to our towns on the fund-raising circuit for Council, he relies quite a lot on the reputation Scouting has in the eyes of local donors. Units are always demanding the Council or District do more for them, when the best things are done by ourselves. Units always complain that not enough of the money raised stays with units, but is siphoned off by professionals. BSA is a registered non-profit operation. Its books are open to inspection. If people are really concerned, go take a look at the books. Our attitude to professionals often smacks of the worst in the uptight Yankee character, and the bad thing about that is there are plenty of non-Yankees who have their own version of it too. Yes, as Paul suggested, I do think our attitude to professionals has a lot to do with money. Money makes us act our worst, and scouts are no exception. Our attitude often has nothing to do with giving goodwill, as we teach our Cubs to do in the law of the pack. If I never hear another "us and them" complaint about professional scouters, it will be fine with me. Nobody becomes a scout professional in search of easy money and a cushy life. They do it for reasons a lot similar to the reasons we volunteer. Think about it, fellow scouters. David Grima Rockland Maine From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Sat Dec 6 02:05:37 1997 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id CAA13383; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 02:05:37 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3174; Sat, 06 Dec 97 00:58:37 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8200; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 00:58:55 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 8046 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 00:58:20 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8044; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 00:46:53 -0500 Approved-By: EIDSON@TCUBVM Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5665; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:09:29 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 05 Dec 97 15:09:02 CDT Received: from mail.tznet.com (mail.tznet.com) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IQTI0RLQTC0025ZJ@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for scouts-l@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 05 Dec 1997 15:08:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sl125.tznet.com ([206.31.5.155]) by mail.tznet.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 3153800 ; Fri, 05 Dec 1997 15:05:47 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: jpeterson@mail.tznet.com MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: <199712052005.3153800@mail.tznet.com> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:05:47 -0600 Reply-To: Jim Peterson Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Jim Peterson Subject: Re: Volunteer attitudes about Professional Scouters X-To: scouts-l@tcu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: At 09:45 AM 12/5/97 -0600, Paul Meyermann wrote: > In conversation with scouters absent any professionals, I have noticed a > theme of negative attitudes regarding the professionals they must deal > with. > If I am alone in these observations feel free to ignore this message. If > you have noticed this negative bias, it is worth a discussion on how it > could be improved. > Paul, You are not alone...I, too have noticed a negative attitude toward professionals, particularly outside of my council. Until I went to Wood Badge, I only knew of a few Scouters within our Council who had some type of problem with our professionals. At Wood Badge this summer, I met a few more (particularly "Old-Timers") who had dislike for Professional Scouters in general. My personal observations of our Council professionals has always been very positive ... maybe I've just been lucky, so far (6 years as a registered Scouter). Now, what can be done about this attitude? how about applying the principals of the Scout Oath and Law to the way we all deal with and to our conversations about our Professionals? Like, if you can't say something _Kind_, don't say anything at all? YiS, _____________________________________________________________________ Jim Peterson Advancement Chair, Boy Scout Troop 379, Blenker, Wisconsin Cubmaster, Pack 379, Auburndale, Wisconsin jpeterson@tznet.com http://www.tznet.com/jpeterson I used to be a "Singing" Eagle ... working my ticket C-8L-97 ********Citizenship************Fitness************Character********** "Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is the probable reason why so few engage in it." - Henry Ford From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Sat Dec 6 04:41:06 1997 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id EAA19928; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 04:41:06 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3225; Sat, 06 Dec 97 03:34:10 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8591; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 03:34:26 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 8585 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 03:33:41 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8584; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 03:33:40 -0500 Received: from popmail.dircon.co.uk by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Sat, 06 Dec 97 03:30:47 CDT Received: from dircon.co.uk (root@tdc.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.50]) by popmail.dircon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA16526; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:29:51 GMT Received: by dircon.co.uk (5.67b) id AA08402; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:29:50 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:29:49 +0000 Reply-To: Ian N Ford FRSH Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Ian N Ford FRSH Subject: Re: Volunteer attitudes toward professionals X-To: "Charles R. Stone" To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <01BD01C2.08288B80@ocs98.ocsonline.com> Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Charles R. Stone wrote: > Norman MacLeod made an interesting reply to the "us v. them" question, but I do beg to differ with him on one point. He said that in many countries, there are very few Scout professionals, who rely heavily on dedicated part-time volunteers to administer program. That sounded accurate. The part I differ with is when he said, "however, the BSA is not one of these". > > Currently, there are over 4 million young people involved in BSA programs. There are several hundred thousand adult leaders serving those young people. To the best of my knowledge, there are only about 5,000 BSA professional scouters. If my calculator works, that means there are on average about 1,000 youth and 100 volunteers for every professional. > > Norman, are you sure BSA doesn't qualify? :) > Again, just for information and without saying what is the " right " number, The Scout Association UK has over 600,000 members and about two hundred paid staff ... including office workers, groundsmen, cooks and cleaners. If you look at the equivalent of " Scout Executives " there are NO professionals at district or county level unless the district or county raises the money to employ someone. There may be a paid administator, camp site warden or an outreach worker developing Scouting in particular communities, but they are not " policy makers " and there is no career structure. They are not employed by Headquarters, and do not report to anybody other than the County or District Executive Committee. Headquarters has less than sixty people involved in any sort of " policy formation " - mainly involved in programme development, relationships with national organisations and government, and international liaison. That includes the two lawyers in the Legal Department Depending on how you define " field " staff, a figure of one to every 50,000 members might be about right. I'm not sure if the BSA figure included just " executives " or their staff. What we don't have in UK are paid staff at district and county levels processing advancement reports, tour permits, membership applications etc. As a Group Scout Leader my " advancement reporting " consisted of a form to be completed once a year that said that my group had awarded a certain number of each award, and a breakdown of membership by age and gender. As District secretary I collated these figures, added some information on leader training and district leaders and passed it to county, where another volunteer would collate ther district replies and pass then to HQ, where presumably a clerk was paid to enter them onto the database. In twenty five years as a British Leader I have had one visit from a professional to my unit. This was exceptional ... most youth will never see a professional apart from staff at a jamboree or large event. We were doing a field trial of an experimental training program for Air Scouts, and I invited the Field Commissioner ( in BSA terms that would be the senior regional executive ) to visit. He had to obtain agreement from the County and District Commissioners to visit one of " their " units, because the " chain of command " is : Section Leader -> Group Scout Leader -> District Commissioner -> County Commissioner -> Committee of the Council. There are no " membership drives " organised by professionals, and no " Friends of Scouting " solications either. Professionals' salaries are costed into the annual membership subscription, and depending on the budgets set by the leaders in each district and county this may be between $20 and $30 per member. This includes a substantial liability insurance and a limited accident insurance. That does not mean that " Headquarters " is not available ... to the contrary, any leader, and youth member for that matter, can call or write to Headquarters. However, the National Commissioners for each program area are volunteers ; they have a paid support staff. Nearly twenty years ago the rule was that Cub Scouts had to wear short trousers, and most of the members disliked this. So we had our regular Sixers' Council ( a meeting of the Sixers (denners) and Leaders ) and one of the boys wrote a letter to the National Commissioner for Cub Scouts. A few weeks later we had an acknowlegement. Two years later there was a change in " Policy, Organisation and Rules " in response to pressure from units. That Sixer was by now a Scout, but when the rules were changed I told the Cubs that " our Sixers Council helped to change that "... a practical lesson in the democratic process. Perhaps we in the UK have too few paid support staff ... I know that all the HQ departments are at full stretch and then some. I am not saying that this is the right solution. There is cuirrently a consultation on how HQ should be supporting counties, districts and groups, and one option will involve an investment in more salaries staff " in the field ". But I hope that it will help to flesh out the bare statistics. Ian Ford Special Needs adviser, Greenwich District Scout Council, London UK From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Sat Dec 6 10:28:07 1997 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from server1.capaccess.org (server1.CapAccess.org [207.91.115.5]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA19292; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 10:28:07 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by server1.capaccess.org (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with SMTP id KAA36130; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 10:20:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3356; Sat, 06 Dec 97 09:20:47 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9507; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:21:05 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 9495 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:20:00 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9494; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:19:59 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Sat, 06 Dec 97 09:19:47 CDT Received: from ns1.dmv.com (ns1.dmv.com) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IQUK4I7L4W0022CW@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for scouts-l@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Sat, 06 Dec 1997 09:19:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dmv.com (dov1-37.dmv.com [207.124.188.137]) by ns1.dmv.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08159 for ; Sat, 06 Dec 1997 10:19:22 -0500 (EST envelope-from raablong@dmv.com) MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <199712052005.3153800@mail.tznet.com> Message-ID: <34896E26.8C8792B3@dmv.com> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 10:24:23 -0500 Reply-To: Ron Raab-Long Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Ron Raab-Long Subject: Re: Volunteer attitudes about Professional Scouters X-To: scouts-l@tcu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: This thread concerning volunteer attitudes towards the professionals is so closely related to the other current thread concerning Quality District Award that the two can't be separated. We volunteers look at scouting as a chance to give back to the community by providing service to the boys. We are in it because we care about the future of our country (whichever country you're in), the future of our own sons, and, admittedly, because it's a lot of fun. The professionals on the other hand have a completely different take on Scouting. Most, I'm sure, truly care about the same things we do, but its still their jobs. Think about your job. What "measureables" does your supervisor look for when completing your performance review? Are your sales figures ahead of last year? Do you have more clients under contract? Have you made more deliveries, had fewer accidents? Did you put together more wizits than in the past, or more than your peers? The Quality District Award is the instrument the Council uses to measure the DE's success. How can they objectively review a DE's performance based on the Aims and Methods of Scouting? I don't think they can. So they use what can be measured. Namely, net gain in units served, membership growth, meet financial goals, 55% of units served making Quality Unit, and using the volunteer system effectively. These competing agendas, while not diametrically opposed, are sufficiently different that they can cause friction between the pro's and the volunteer's. I care about the boys I have now. I want to provide them with the best program I can. My DE wants me to provide it to more boys, his job depends on it. I think one troop of 40 Scouts is great. He thinks four troops of ten boys is better, his job depends on it. I want to make sure all my Scouts have the means to go to summer camp next year. He wants to meet the financial goals that council laid on his shoulders, his job depends on it. I love scouting. I am as dedicated to the program as anyone out there, but you couldn't pay me enough to do it for a living. Yours truly in the Spirit of Scouting, Ron Raab-Long From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Sat Dec 6 10:29:24 1997 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from server1.capaccess.org (server1.CapAccess.org [207.91.115.5]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA19752; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 10:29:24 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by server1.capaccess.org (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with SMTP id KAA24380; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 10:22:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3360; Sat, 06 Dec 97 09:22:08 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9533; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:22:25 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 9502 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:21:26 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9500; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:20:55 -0500 Received: from Fe3.rust.net by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Sat, 06 Dec 97 09:20:49 CDT Received: from rhaar (64-156.pop.no.rustnet.com [209.69.64.156]) by Fe3.rust.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA20818 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 10:20:20 -0500 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: <008301bd025b$05f0f980$9c4045d1@rhaar> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 10:24:17 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Haar Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Robert Haar Subject: Re: Volunteer attitudes about Professional Scouters To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Adcdave >In a message dated 97-12-05 11:51:44 EST, Paul.Meyermann@UNI.EDU writes: > ><< In conversation with scouters absent any professionals, I have noticed a > theme of negative attitudes regarding the professionals they must deal > with. I have always thought that this was counter productive and often > unwarranted. > > Why is this? >> > >I have observed this to be largley due to ignorance about what a professional >is supposed to do. > >Most people have very little idea of how little these people get paid, or how >much time they spend at their jobs. >. > >Of course professional scouters are also human. This means they are not >perfect, and some are better than others. This is also true of the >volunteers, so cut them a little slack, and remember we are supposed to work >together. In my 15 years of holding various unit level leadership positions, I have seen these negatives attitudes and particularly mistrust operate in both directions, but more often, it has been the unit leaders being distrustful of the council and National organization (both professional and volunteer). While much of the relationship works well, there is a significant portion that is hurt by these attitudes. Partly, this is caused by misunderstanding, but there is also an effect of "scope." At the Council, the focus is often on the organization effectiveness of BSA. While this may be necessary, it also translates into an appearance of a "numbers game" where the organization seems to pursue more youth registrations and dollars just for the sake of being bigger. This appearance is furthered by the minority of professionals who actively promote their own careers by "empire building" (e.g. pushing council mergers when the unit leaders see no reason to do so) or who come into a new assignment and immediate start to politic for a new assignment at a larger council. Add to this, the perception that many of the council-level volunteers are not involved in unit activities and it leads to a them vs. us attitude. At the unit level, our focus is more on individual scouts and what our pack/troop/post program can do to help them have fun, learn and mature. But we are also guilty of being myopic and forgetting that our unit is part of a larger context, that without the larger scouting organization, we wouldn't have the programs we use, and national and the councils attempt to deal with a much larger spectrum of unit situations that the one that we see. I would hope that we all look at this discussion as a call to work on the problems of poor communications and distrust, rather than just wringing our hands and complaining. YIS Robert Haar email: rhaar@rust.net ASM, BSA Troop 188, Clinton Valley Council, Rochester Hills, MI From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Sat Dec 6 10:56:19 1997 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from server1.capaccess.org (server1.CapAccess.org [207.91.115.5]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA24073; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 10:56:19 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by server1.capaccess.org (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with SMTP id KAA32816; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 10:49:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3468; Sat, 06 Dec 97 09:49:08 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0187; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:49:25 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 0181 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:48:40 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0180; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:48:39 -0500 Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Sat, 06 Dec 97 09:48:06 CDT Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 10:47:00 EST Reply-To: RAGerhard Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: RAGerhard Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Volunteer attitudes about Professional Scouters To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Paul Merryman's post on volunteer Scouters' attitudes towards professionals got me thinking about my relationships with professional Scouters. For the record, I'd like to say that most of the professionals I have worked with have been great. A few have really stood out. One in particular was such a great guy, did his job so well and seemed to love it so much that I got to thinking about becoming a pro. On the other hand, I have fun into several who I don't hold in the highest regard. Those few seem to me to have earned their reputations through a lack of support and organization. They have not been there with the help, supplies or information we have needed on a timely basis. In one instance, the pros insisted they take over an event we had run in the past, and the results were stunningly disappointing. Now, those have been MY feelings about some of the professionals I have worked with. And I have noted that most of the volunteers who worked with those men and women had similar feelings for them. So I don't think it's fair to say that all volunteers have a negative attitude towards all professionals. I do think that those professionals (and volunteers) who seem to have a nasty reputation - and those who have a good one - have most likely earned it. YiS Robert Gerhard Cubmaster & Webelos ADL Pack 83, Ft. Worth, TX