From mfbowman@CapAccess.org Mon Nov 10 22:45:25 1997 Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:45:24 -0500 (EST) From: "Michael F. Bowman" To: EC92@aol.com Subject: Re: The Challenge of Life In-Reply-To: <971110183210_-822656657@mrin47> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Tom, I'm glad that you and a few others are thinking of putting something together, but would encourage you to do it openly on the list where it doesn't seem to be some sort of clandestine effort. Why? BSA's greatest fear is that we will use this tool to "secretly" get around them. The list is peopled by a number of professionals, including a few that keep in touch with National and advise of what goes on, when something is hot. There are also volunteers from National that are on the list. Likewise there are more resource people. It would also give an opportunity to demonstrate that a list like this is not there merely as a "bitch" session, but as a place where constructive ideas can be born and passed to National for action using existing structure and then communicated to Councils in the way National is comfortable with doing. By so acting, we can gain some respect and demonstrate we are not here to subvert Scouting, rather to help it. If only a few work together it will be harder to shape a really good suggestion that has a chance of success. If you use all of the resources of the list, you will have many more folks with many more backgrounds and resources to help out. Mike Speaking only for myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman E-mail: mfbowman@capaccess.org Visit: ftp1.scouter.com/usscouts U. S. Scouting Service Project FTP Site Administrator (PC Area) Helping to deliver the promise of Scouting from Alexandria, Virginia From mfbowman@CapAccess.org Mon Nov 10 23:07:32 1997 Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:07:30 -0500 (EST) From: "Michael F. Bowman" To: SCOUTS-L - Youth Groups Discussion List Subject: The Challenge of Life - Organizing Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: The initial feedback privately has been good. And I thank Gary for his sensitive account of the death of a Scout in his unit. To get things going it may be helpful to consider spending a day or two on each of the following, giving folks a chance to toss in their thoughts. After we've had a go at these and other topics anyone feels we should cover, we can see about how to use the information to put together something that can be passed on to our colleagues serving in BSA's National Headquarters. For those not particullarly interested in this thread, I would encourage you to still watch the process. What we do with the topics will in many ways mirror the way new courses are designed at local Councils for Pow Wows, University of Scouting, etc., only the topic will be different. 1. What do we know about teenage suicide? What resources are available to help us? 2. What kinds of things would it be helpful for a leader to know more about regarding teen suicides, prevention, etc. 3. What kinds of things should a leader do/not do or be aware of if there is a loss of life among the boys in his unit. 4. What, if any training, should be included for Scouts. 5. What should be in a training syllabus 6. Where would it be best to make this training available to a leader - as part of an exisiting course, a new course? 7. Who is willing to volunteer to help draft and consult with National as a resource person? We will need folks who have professional credentials in many areas as well as experienced unit leaders, district and council leaders, and professionals to get balance. 8. National has a process for handling new ideas from the field. We can use that process. We will have generated raw ideas, data, and resource people. Old hands at this can certainly help and would be appreciated. This will only work, if we all join in cooperatively and give it our best efforts. Please don't be shy about offering a thought. Some of the best comments sometimes come from folks that have been lurking in the background doing a lot more thinking than talking. Mike Speaking only for myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman E-mail: mfbowman@capaccess.org Visit: ftp1.scouter.com/usscouts U. S. Scouting Service Project FTP Site Administrator (PC Area) Helping to deliver the promise of Scouting from Alexandria, Virginia From mfbowman@CapAccess.org Mon Nov 10 23:10:59 1997 Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:10:57 -0500 (EST) From: "Michael F. Bowman" To: SCOUTS-L - Youth Groups Discussion List Subject: The Challenge of Life - Knowledge and Resources Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: 1. What do we know about teenage suicide? What resources are available to help us? Speaking only for myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman E-mail: mfbowman@capaccess.org Visit: ftp1.scouter.com/usscouts U. S. Scouting Service Project FTP Site Administrator (PC Area) Helping to deliver the promise of Scouting from Alexandria, Virginia From mfbowman@CapAccess.org Wed Nov 12 20:49:31 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:49:30 -0500 (EST) From: "Michael F. Bowman" To: LouAnn Walker cc: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Subject: Re: What would you do (was Re: Quality award questions) In-Reply-To: <971112111429_220219266@mrin84.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: LouAnn, Many adults make mistakes on placing insignia and badges. Sometimes it looks terrible as with a leader wearing several years worth of Quality Unit patches. However, the most important thing about the person is that they have tried to do their best to get uniformed and have donated their time and talents in service to youth. I would never let a misplaced patch get in the way of encouraging that service. Hence, my practice is most often to ignore the fault or at least not say anything, if I don't know the person. Now if I do know the person and can in a friendly way suggest a correction while complimenting the fact that they are in uniform and wearing the patch in the first place, I might do it - but not as a drill instructor/uniform policeman. Instead its usually a matter of a little nudge in a friendly complimentary way. In roundtables we elected to avoid confrontation or embarassment, by rigging a uniforming demonstration. In walks a leader with all the wrong patches and insignia in all the wrong places. We ask for group participation in identifying all the things that are wrong and where things should go. As it progress the patches (all double-stick taped) are removed and rearranged (for the ones that stay). Usually the appearance is laughter provoking. Imagine a Scouter with 20 year pins from stem to stern, patches on a hat, sleeves covered with a variety of positions, quality unit, patrol, and joke patches. Front covered with multiple patches and 10 or 20 knots most repeats of one or two. Once we even had a neckerchief with flashing lights worked in. Everyone got the message without anyone being put down. Mike Speaking only for myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman E-mail: mfbowman@capaccess.org Visit: ftp1.scouter.com/usscouts U. S. Scouting Service Project FTP Site Administrator (PC Area) Helping to deliver the promise of Scouting from Alexandria, Virginia From mfbowman@CapAccess.org Wed Nov 12 21:15:09 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:15:07 -0500 (EST) From: "Michael F. Bowman" To: SCOUTS-L - Youth Groups Discussion List Subject: A few thoughts Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: A few postings questioned whether we should have a program to deal with suicide and post-suicide situations expressing concerns that we are not mental health professionals and noting that there are large organizations for dealing with this. Whether we have training or not, a leader confronted with one of these situations is going to act in some manner - even trying to ignore a situation is an action. Some will do things that are not productive or even counter-productive as things stand now. Some will have natural instincts that are good. Others will listen and do some first aid counselling. Still others will help by showing compassion. If we have better information and more hints out there for leaders, perhaps more leaders would be likely to do things that are helpful and less likely to be damaging. Is this a substitute for existing programs and mental health professionals. Absolutely not. I think what we are talking about is how a person on the front line working with a boy can be the starting point or if necessary the bridge to other resources. It is easy to compartmentalize society and say well - there are organizations out there to do this. Somehow, I don't see Billy Scout going on his own knocking on the sterile doors of some strange building wanting to talk to strangers about a problem he may not even understand he should talk about. But Billy does know his Scoutmaster and may talk, if the Scoutmaster listens and talking may help get the ball rolling. If this is the person Billy might talk to, then wouldn't it be better, if the Scoutmaster knew a little more about what he should do and should do or say? Crisis intervention counselors that I've know tell me that often times a lot of grief gets handled best when a person talks with people he/she knows and doesn't always need to go to professional intervention. Many times these counselors are called in to a school or workplace and provide on the spot help and facilitation to people touched by tragedy. Almost immediately they encourage folks close to the deceased to talk to each other and express their feelings and teach all involved to allow others to express feelings without being critical. If a leader understands some of the basics, he/she might be more willing to listen and comfort non-critically, which in and of itself is a help. If the leader also knows the limits, it is more likely that he/she might also facilitate or bridge to other resource people like a crisis counsellor while at the same time having a better idea of how to talk with parents about what is going on. Mike Speaking only for myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman E-mail: mfbowman@capaccess.org Visit: ftp1.scouter.com/usscouts U. S. Scouting Service Project FTP Site Administrator (PC Area) Helping to deliver the promise of Scouting from Alexandria, Virginia From mfbowman@CapAccess.org Wed Nov 12 21:27:16 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:27:15 -0500 (EST) From: "Michael F. Bowman" To: "Calvin H. Gray" <405geezer@IGG-TX.NET> cc: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Subject: Re: Silver Beaver Nomination Process In-Reply-To: <3469DBB1.7D71@igg-tx.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Calvin, For every ten Scouters that would like to be honored before their colleagues, I would guess that there are only one or two that will ever write a recommendation for another Scouter for an award. And there are many more that just aren't interested in getting awards or worrying about who get them. As a result there are lots of deserving and committed Scouters that never get the full measure of recognition that they really deserve for the fine work they do. I've yet to run into an awards committee that didn't wish for more nominations and/or one that didn't have to fish for a few nominations for some really deserving person. If in your Council the nominations weren't coming in I would expect that volunteers would shake the bushes a bit to get some. If that failed or didn't happen I would hope that one of professionals would help out too by encouraging nominations of worthy individuals. Ultimately the awards committee will make the final recommendation and it will go up to the Scout Executive for review. In the case of the Silver Beaver it will go from the Scout Executive to National for final review. Both volunteers and professionals play a role in the process. Sometimes professionals may have to turn up the burner to get things going, if only a trickle of nominations are coming in. Or worse, if the only nominations are for good folks, but ones who have done far less than others who weren't nominated that clearly should be getting recognized. Your staff may have been a little heavy handed in how they did it, but I wouldn't rush to the conclusion that it was out of line. We are all in it together and should be working together to see that our best people are recognized for their dedication to service. Speaking only for myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman E-mail: mfbowman@capaccess.org Visit: ftp1.scouter.com/usscouts U. S. Scouting Service Project FTP Site Administrator (PC Area) Helping to deliver the promise of Scouting from Alexandria, Virginia From mfbowman@CapAccess.org Fri Nov 14 21:39:03 1997 Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:39:02 -0500 (EST) From: "Michael F. Bowman" To: Robin Toomey cc: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Subject: Re: How long for rank? In-Reply-To: <19971114.211552.2806.3.ArrowT@juno.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Robin, I wouldn't worry too much about this Cub getting Wolf too soon. There are plenty of arrow points to work on, belt loops to be earned, and more. He could go for a hiking medal on a trail, work on a religious emblem, do the world conservation badge, or any number of other things available. The key thing is to recognize his progress as it happens. We should never hold a boy back on advancement because the others aren't moving as fast. Advancement is an individual thing, not a group thing. So recognize his achievement and help him stay challenged by providing opportunities for other activities, letting him know about other awards, and encouraging his work on arrow points. If you hold him back, you may discourage him from staying or teach him not to try to excell. Mike Speaking only for myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman E-mail: mfbowman@capaccess.org Visit: ftp1.scouter.com/usscouts U. S. Scouting Service Project FTP Site Administrator (PC Area) Helping to deliver the promise of Scouting from Alexandria, Virginia From mfbowman@CapAccess.org Fri Nov 14 21:50:28 1997 Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:50:27 -0500 (EST) From: "Michael F. Bowman" To: "A.A.M." cc: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Subject: Re: New problem... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Alicia, For the belt loops, a Cub doesn't have to be a member of an existing sports team. The idea is for the Cub to try several sports with the hope that he will find one or more that he enjoys and that he may latter participate in more fully leading to better physical fitness. To meet the requirements it is fine for a Pack or a couple of dens to form up teams and play a sport (provided they have the right number of players for the sport). This team participation is enough. So it may be possible that these other Scouts played on a team in a sport without being in a league or other organized effort, which would be enough. Now on the other hand, if they never even played on a team like that described above, their leader was doing them a disservice by allowing them to get a beltloop without having a chance to try out the sport. We run into all types of leadership with volunteers. Some good, some not as good as we would like. Some get too enthralled with getting badges passed out and some never light the fire under a kid. In either case we can always nudge 'em along to realizing that advancement works when we really motivate a boy to do his best and give him the opportunity to try. Sounds like you are doing a good job of this with your boys. No doubt they'll have a rich experience. Mike Speaking only for myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman E-mail: mfbowman@capaccess.org Visit: ftp1.scouter.com/usscouts U. S. Scouting Service Project FTP Site Administrator (PC Area) Helping to deliver the promise of Scouting from Alexandria, Virginia From mfbowman@CapAccess.org Fri Nov 14 22:05:48 1997 Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:05:47 -0500 (EST) From: "Michael F. Bowman" To: david swank cc: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Subject: Re: Problems W/Webelos Den Leader In-Reply-To: <346A76F2.4CBA@sat.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Kristen, Sooner or later you will have to talk with your Webelos Den Leader, if you expect to see the situation change. And yes it is possible that she may quit or threaten to do so. You've already described yourself as working with three dens and hard put to do more. So it is natural to worry about what would happen if you take the next step. Maybe now is the time to step back and make an assessment of your own role first and work on reducing your need to work with the other three dens and be able to do more with the troubled den, if your worst fears come true. For each of the three dens you are working with, I would suggest you have a parents meeting to talk about Cub Scouting. Give them sort of a fast start training session. Explain how Cub Scouting depends on parent involvement. Point out that all the things we are doing are the same things you would like to do for your boy, if you had the time. We can do these things cause we work together - more things than any of us could do on our own. Now I need your help. I have to back out of some of the work I'm doing - I'm spread way to thin. This den needs you to help out. Could each of you take turns helping as an assistant for a meeting? Could any of you do more? ... I would also encourage some one-on-one counseling and arm twisting with a few of the ones that you think are the best prospects. Try to get each of these dens working without the need for you to be around on a regular basis. Once you've helped others share in the opportunity of leading the boys, you will have more time and energy to work on the problem Webelos den. And if the leader steps down, you'll be able to take it on for a short while all the time working to recruit new leaders to take your place. When you talk with the Webelos Den Leader, you may have more success, if you can compliment the good things that are going on and are seen more as a friend than as an inspector general type. Are there things that can be complimented and encouraged? Can you encourage more training or other opportunities to interact with other adult leaders? Can you offer little suggestions over a period of time to nudge her along? Can you persuade her that she's working so hard she needs another assistant and recruit one that will work towards allowing the boys to do more? Yeah, lotsa questions. I'm just thinking out loud and wondering if there are things that can be done to steer her in the right direction without her getting her back up and quiting. You have a tough situation and one that will challenge you no end. I wish you the best of luck. Mike Speaking only for myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman E-mail: mfbowman@capaccess.org Visit: ftp1.scouter.com/usscouts U. S. Scouting Service Project FTP Site Administrator (PC Area) Helping to deliver the promise of Scouting from Alexandria, Virginia From mfbowman@CapAccess.org Fri Nov 14 23:22:34 1997 Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 23:22:33 -0500 (EST) From: "Michael F. Bowman" To: SCOUTS-L - Youth Groups Discussion List Subject: Len's Story Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Some of you who have been on the list for a few months or more may remember a posting I made a few months back about the worst camp meal. The story focused on a Scout named Len that made about the most terrible mess of a meal you could imagine. Some who read about it were prompted to write about gagging at the thought of his horrid creation, some saw the humor in it as did I at the time of writing. The rest of Len's story wasn't so good. Let me tell you a little about his life. Len joined our Troop in the early sixties. He was eager and proud of his uniform and worked hard to move up to Second Class. He was really proud of that patch and sewed it on himself. We knew that his dad had worked with him on the badge, but what we didn't know was that when Len was a little slow in getting something his dad would pull off his belt and give Len a taste of leather. His dad was determined that Len was going to be a success and couldn't stand it when Len wasn't making the desired amount of progress. What we did know was that Len did have trouble with common sense sorts of things - in fact he seemed to us to be downright slow at times. Sometimes his manner of behavior seemed to provoke some good natured ribbing and some ribbing that wasn't very good natured at all. In school things were a lot worse. Len's marks were always towards the bottom of the class. He kept falling behind. Sometimes kids made fun of Len and he would get into fights. He always seemed to be a strong-willed sort able to take it and to keep trying. Despite his failures at school, Len did keep trying in Scouts and eventually made First Class. Along the way he tended to screw-up a lot of things like cooking or pitching a tent and continued to get a lot of comments from the other guys. Nobody thought much about any of this and it went on for awhile. I think it was about two years after he joined the Troop that we were on a 20 mile hike talking about things when he volunteered out of the blue that he'd tried to hang himself a few weeks earlier. The guys didn't believe him and taunted him with things like "so you screwed that up too" or "didn't you know how to tie the knot right?" He persisted in saying that he in fact had tried to kill himself and that he was going to do it right next time. Of course none of the guys believed him and just thought that he was feeding us a line to get the other guys to let up on him. Whether they believed it or not most of the fellows did let up on him - I think they sensed that he wasn't acting quite the same as before and didn't no really what to make of him. Talk drift to other things and before long the hike was over. Nobody much talked about what Len had said and certainly none of us thought to talk to one of our Scoutmasters about it. Later some went home and did talk to their parents about it and were told things like "well what can you expect, he's a troubled child." or "Yeah right, what other stories did he tell." and that sort of thing. We didn't think much about until a few weeks later when our Scoutmaster decided we needed to have a talk about Len. Len wasn't at the meeting. I remember that the Scoutmaster was really mad, but tried not to show it. He told us that he'd heard we were riding Len pretty hard and that Len had problems. He went on to say he was going to kick some rear-ends if ever heard anyone giving Len a hard time again. We guessed that the word got to him and he didn't like what he'd heard. He also told us that Len was getting some counseling and that he'd better never hear anyone make fun of that. Some of us made an effort, maybe of out of guilt or duty, to help Len out and work with him. But Len seemed to be drifting sometimes. He stayed in the Troop for another year or so and advanced a bit more to Star. He even was a Patrol Leader for awhile, but it didn't work out so he ended up being quartermaster for a long time. Along the way somewhere he kind of dropped off to the side and eventually just didn't come any more. But while he'd been there he really had been proud of his uniform and the badges he'd earned. He was probably the only Scout in the Troop to wear his uniform to the point that it was too filthy to be acceptable just from the joy of wearing it at camp. And his summers at camp seemed to be a highlight for him. Every once in awhile somebody might mention Len and some of his antics might be recalled, but gradually he was forgotten. At school he had continued to have problems and was held back, so he wasn't seen at school much either. The rest of the guys that had been in the same patrol eventually made Eagle and moved on to Exploring. A few years later we did hear about Len one last time. He had decided to try suicide again only this time he was successful. This experience in life left us with a lot of unanswered questions. A lot of things could have been different, but they weren't. Len had a tough life with a lot of obstacles to overcome. His home life was sometimes brutal. He had some learning problems. He felt pretty much alone and that nobody cared about him for much of his life. Even in Scouting where he thrived the most, he had been put down by his fellows because of his behaviors and mannerisms. There wasn't much adult intervention in school or Scouting towards Len's peers other than our Scoutmaster's single session that carried a lot of weight. Maybe Len survived a little longer because of Scouting. Maybe he could have made it with a little more. Maybe some of his troubles could have been lessened. No, there aren't easy answers and no you can't second guess it to death. When I think back to this time I wonder whether there is another Len out there somewhere facing a lot of troubles, having a hard time, maybe being ignored, and thinking like Len of a way out of life. If we all think back we all probably can remember a kid we knew at school, someone in the town or community who made this terrible choice. So if you were wondering why I've been an advocate for suicide awareness and coping training, it is in part because of Len's story and a desire not to see it repeated. Mike Speaking only for myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman E-mail: mfbowman@capaccess.org Visit: ftp1.scouter.com/usscouts U. S. Scouting Service Project FTP Site Administrator (PC Area) Helping to deliver the promise of Scouting from Alexandria, Virginia From mfbowman@CapAccess.org Mon Nov 17 23:52:59 1997 Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 23:52:57 -0500 (EST) From: "Michael F. Bowman" To: BLUE-EYED EAGLE <0203127@ACAD.NWMISSOURI.EDU> Subject: Re: Teen Suicide In-Reply-To: <971113174356.2022dc4a@ACAD.NWMISSOURI.EDU> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, BLUE-EYED EAGLE wrote: > In my short time on this list, I have come to greatly respect your opinions. > Oh, I'm sure we'll disagree occassionally, but that's no big deal. I hope > you don't mind me emailing your personally from time-to-time for some > advice. If so, don't ever hesitate to let me know. > Devin, I am always glad to be of help, if I can. > Are you helping Tom out with this report proposal about a BSA training > program? I think it's a good idea, but I'm very unexperienced at dealing Tom has taken this on himself and seems to want to run with it. He has invited me to join him, but I have hesitated. I wanted a much more public review with lots of public input to develop a high quality proposal that would at least meet any objections apt to be fielded. This group would be a good sounding board. Tom wants to work in private, which tends to sew seeds of distrust. Folks always are suspicious of anything that isn't public. I don't want to get into a private effort. > with the professional level of scouting. Do you think our attempts stand > a good chance of success? Do you know Tom well enough to have an opinion > of the quality of report he will prepare? It's hard doing a group > collaboration, not knowing what all parties are doing, or even who all the > parties are. I don't know Tom except by what I read in his e-mail. I have no doubt he is sincere and dedicated. However, I don't have enough information to guess how he might do at preparing a report. He may do an excellent job with lots of folks helping privately. Hard to say. Although I do not like working in private groups, I have no objection to others doings so. Tom probably needs helpful input, and if you are comfortable with helping him, I see no reason not to do so. The professional community will have to perceive that the effort is not a challenge to their lines of authority. And there are many reasons for not doing it that they may raise - some valid, some not. It is hard to predict whether the idea will work until we give it a go. > > I've had several people email me and say that they're having an information > session for their Troops. At least we've got people thinking about the > issue, regardless of where it goes from here. > This tells me that we've already been successful. And the good news is that in one or more of those Troops a life will be changed forever. Your innocent question and subsequent postings have made that possible and other Scouters are making it reality. Wonderful how things sometimes work. Thinking and talking about it is the first step and a good one. Even if we accomplish little else, we must conclude that the effort is a success. Mike Speaking only for myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman E-mail: mfbowman@capaccess.org Visit: ftp1.scouter.com/usscouts U. S. Scouting Service Project FTP Site Administrator (PC Area) Helping to deliver the promise of Scouting from Alexandria, Virginia From mfbowman@CapAccess.org Mon Nov 17 23:57:52 1997 Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 23:57:51 -0500 (EST) From: "Michael F. Bowman" To: Gary Piper Subject: Re: Re: Scouting for Life, Continued In-Reply-To: <0a5143956140fb7UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Gary, Thanks so much for sharing your own experience and now for lending a hand in encouraging others to see the need for training and understanding of suicide and its aftermath. Most of all thanks for asking hard questions. Your postings prompted me to reflect and to share Len's Story with the hope that people would see another real case and understand just how important it is that we do our best in this area. Mike Speaking only for myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman E-mail: mfbowman@capaccess.org Visit: ftp1.scouter.com/usscouts U. S. Scouting Service Project FTP Site Administrator (PC Area) Helping to deliver the promise of Scouting from Alexandria, Virginia From mfbowman@CapAccess.org Tue Nov 18 00:22:15 1997 Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 00:22:14 -0500 (EST) From: "Michael F. Bowman" To: "David E. Cann" Subject: Re: Len's Story In-Reply-To: <19971115.225417.11207.0.davidecann@juno.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: David, Thanks for sharing your own experience and feelings after reading Len's Story. Len's life was spent in Indiana, but it seems like the same thing happens all over and all too often as was the case with your Scout in NC. It is a sad business when something terrible like suicide happens and we see the life of a wonderful young person end, because that young person couldn't take the pain of living any longer. I agree that it is hard to understand just how devastating abuse can be and how it can drive one to consider extreme methods of coping without having experienced it first-hand. I do understand. As a youth I was whipped frequently with belts, paddles, rulers, or whatever came to hand both at home and in school (once in School to the tune of 42 whacks with a large paddle over a desk facing the class to maximize the humiliation). I remember being screamed at, shaken, shut up in a room and made to miss a meal, slapped, etc. I also remember being blamed for bringing illness into the house when I was sick and made to be responsible, if my brothers got sick also. There were times when I considered the ugly alternative more than normal. But I had a safe haven and survived. It wasn't the worst case, but bad enough. Fortunately that safe haven and other good experiences were enough to keep the cycle from repeating in the next generation. But too often this is not the case unless there is something that can make the difference early enough. I guess that is why when we think of others who didn't fare so well, that it is enough to shake one. And it is okay to be choked up a lot because you can understand and feel the pain. My prayers are for the poor young fellow that witnessed his mother's murder. How ghastly. For him Scouting may make all the difference in life. One thing that has become clear since writing about this subject is that many, many Scouters have had their own personal experiences as youths or leaders with abuse, suicides, and other tragedys. Many have turned from these awful things to a life of service to try to make sure others get the chance they did not. Sometimes we surprise ourselves. Speaking only for myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman E-mail: mfbowman@capaccess.org Visit: ftp1.scouter.com/usscouts U. S. Scouting Service Project FTP Site Administrator (PC Area) Helping to deliver the promise of Scouting from Alexandria, Virginia From mfbowman@CapAccess.org Wed Nov 19 21:41:53 1997 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:41:51 -0500 (EST) From: "Michael F. Bowman" To: The Gabriels cc: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Subject: Re: Religious Emblems In-Reply-To: <01BCF510.84C95480@p211.mm.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Mike, Sounds like both your Scout Shop and the local leader are having trouble with this one. For any of the knots that are awarded in multiple phases of the Scouting Program the wearer should wear the device appropriate to the phase where the knot was awarded. For your Cub this means that he should wear the knot with two devices - one each for the emblem earned as a Wolf and the other for the emblem earned as a Webelos. (It isn't necessary to wear the devices, but he is entitled to wear both) In practice if a Scout or Scouter has one device it is worn in the center of the knot. If the Scout or Scouter has two they are worn about a third of the way into the knot just over the curved part of the rope on either side. Three are evenly spaced across in a line. Once the Scout has been presented with a religious emblem knot, he may wear it on his uniform for as long as he is registered as a Scout/Scouter and with any devices appropriate (including the two from Cubs and Webelos). During ceremonies where the knot is presented it is kind of nice to point out that this is a symbol of his growing toward adulthood and maturity and an patch he can always wear the rest of his life. If he is presented with additional religious emblems after completing the programs for Scouts in Boy Scouting and Exploring, he may also wear the devices for those program phases. Mike Speaking only for myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman E-mail: mfbowman@capaccess.org Visit: ftp1.scouter.com/usscouts U. S. Scouting Service Project FTP Site Administrator (PC Area) Helping to deliver the promise of Scouting from Alexandria, Virginia From mfbowman@CapAccess.org Wed Nov 19 21:49:12 1997 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:49:10 -0500 (EST) From: "Michael F. Bowman" To: Amick Robert cc: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Subject: Re: Tricky meeting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: John, Along with Bob's great insights in handling a situation likely to be permeated with conflict, you may want to consider the following guidelines frequently used in law and business to resolve conflicts at the lowest possible level and with the least amount of damage to the parties: PRINCIPLES OF CONFLICT OF RESOLUTION 1. Think Before Reacting The tendency in a conflict situation is to react immediately. After all, if we do not react we may lose our opportunity. In order to resolve conflict successfully it is important to think before we react--consider the options, weigh the possibilities. The same reaction is not appropriate for every conflict. 2. Listen Actively Listening is the most important part of communication. If we do not hear what the other parties are communicating we can not resolve a conflict. Active listening means not only listening to what another person is saying with words, but also to what is said by intonation and body language. The active listening process also involves letting the speaker know that he or she has been heard. For example, "What I heard you say is......" 3. Assure a Fair Process The process for resolving a conflict is often as critical as the conflict itself. It is important to assure that the resolution method chosen as well as the process for affect- ing that method is fair to all parties to the conflict. Even the perception of unfairness can destroy the resolution. 4. Attack the Problem Conflict is very emotional. When emotions are high it is much easier to begin attacking the person on the other side than it is to solve the problem. The only way conflicts get resolved is when we attack the problem and not each other. What is the problem that lies behind the emotion? What are the causes instead of the symptoms? 5. Accept Responsibility Every conflict has may sides and there is enough responsi- bility for everyone. Attempting to place blame only creates resentment and anger that heightens any existing conflict. In order to resolve a conflict we must accept our share of the responsibility and eliminate the concept of blame. 6. Use Direct Communication Say what we mean and mean what we say. Avoid hiding the ball by talking around a problem. The best way to accomp- lish this is to use "I-Messages". With an "I-Message" we express our own wants, needs or concerns to the listener. "I-Messages" are clear and non-threatening way of telling others what we want and how we feel. A "you-message" blames or criticizes the listener. It suggests that she or he is at fault. 7. Look for Interests Positions are usually easy to understand because we are taught to verbalize what we want. However, if we are going to resolve conflict successfully we must uncover why we want something and what is really important about the issue in conflict. Remember to look for the true interests of the all the parties to the conflict. 8. Focus on the Future In order to understand the conflict, it is important to under- stand the dynamics of the relationship including the history of the relationship. However, in order to resolve the conflict we must focus on the future. What do we want to do differently tomorrow? 9. Options for Mutual Gain Look for ways to assure that we are all better off tomorrow than we are today. Our gain at the expense of someone else only prolongs conflict and prevents resolution. Taken from http://www.ogc.secnav.hq.navy.mil/adr.html Speaking only for myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman E-mail: mfbowman@capaccess.org Visit: ftp1.scouter.com/usscouts U. S. Scouting Service Project FTP Site Administrator (PC Area) Helping to deliver the promise of Scouting from Alexandria, Virginia From mfbowman@CapAccess.org Wed Nov 19 21:52:22 1997 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:52:21 -0500 (EST) From: "Michael F. Bowman" To: SCOUTS-L - Youth Groups Discussion List Subject: Gary's Posting Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Gary Piper was having some trouble posting and asked me to relay the following: >From grpiper@email.msn.com Sat Nov 15 10:03:38 1997 Return-Path: grpiper@email.msn.com Received: from UPIMSSMTPSYS03 (upimssmtpsys03.email.msn.com [207.68.152.40]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA17435 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:03:38 -0500 Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR03 - 207.68.143.159 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 06:56:44 -0800 Received: from gary - 205.238.80.56 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 06:56:39 -0800 From: "Gary Piper" To: "Bruce Major" , "Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L" Cc: "Michael F. Bowman" Subject: Re: Re: Scouting for Life, Continued Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 07:54:55 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <0a5143956140fb7UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com> Status: RO X-Status: I have personally experienced the lose of a scout to suicide. I have provided information in the past on the loss. What should we do as scouters to try and prevent this from ever happening? I believe that we should add a training program to help teach leaders to recognize warning signs of depression/suicide. This is important but does not address the real problem. I believe that suicide is the result of many other social problems that a boy is facing. Therefore, I recommend that we concentrate on a program of training our leaders on how to insure that our Scouting program always provides a positive experience that builds self-esteem and is a healthy environment. Many of the problems that could cause a boy emotional turmoil are outside our control. However, we can influence many. The scout in my troop that committed suicide (Steven) was a young man that was seen as a nered by his peers. He was constantly tormented in just about everything he did. We did not allow this in our troop and he found it as a safe place. A place where he was treated with respect. I believe that is why he loved scouting so passionately. But it just was not enough for Steven. What we did not do was a good job of was teaching the other scouts the importance of showing him respect at school and everywhere else. The importance of treating others with respect and how to recognize the difference between joking and tormenting. Boys can be very mean and not even understand the impact on others. If they find someone's button that sets them off, they frequently push it, just because it is fun. They have no idea what impact it has on the other person. I believe if they did, many would not torment the others. Some just do not care, it was fun for them. I am not suggesting that we currently tolerate this behavior. Many times we just discipline the offender without teach him what was wrong and how it impacted others. In many troops we too often get hung up on rank advancement. Rank advancement is a tool to help us teach the principals of scouting contained in the Scout Oath and Law. If we work hard on teaching these principles we will be doing our best to insure that the program has the best positive impact on our scouts. Why don't we take the Scout Oath and Law and start a discussion group on each point? How can we integrate it into our program and teach our boys? For example: A scout is friendly - What does this mean? What actions have we seen in our scouts that violate this principle? What could we do at the time of the action to help teach the boys that their action violated this principle? How can we teach our boys the importance of being friendly to other, all others in our daily lives? How can we help them understand the negative impact on themselves and others if we are not friendly? We could then move on to other principals. This approach would have more positive impact on Scouting and boys. It will result in helping all our scouts become better citizens and meet the goals of scouting. I realize that my recommended approach is not directly addressing the issue of suicide. After four years of beating myself up with the WHAT IF question and trying to figure out how I could have saved Steven, I have come to the answer that all I can do is try and provide the best Scouting program that I am capable of. If I fail, I fail knowing I did my best. I believe that society in general failed Steven, I have come to the conclusion that I did all that could be expected to insure that scouting provided a positive influence on Steven. I also believe that it is all our responsibility to keep trying to improve the program for our boys. I believe that every boy that comes to our troop deserves the best program we can provide him. What does the list think of this idea? Lets get going on having National include training and well we are working that start this topic and see where it goes. Bruce Major - I am using MSN and they keep changing my email address. The list rejects my postings because of this. If this does not show up on the list in a day would you please post it form me. YiS Gary Piper Scoutmaster, Troop 268 St. Patrick's Church Colorado Springs, CO Speaking only for myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman E-mail: mfbowman@capaccess.org Visit: ftp1.scouter.com/usscouts U. S. Scouting Service Project FTP Site Administrator (PC Area) Helping to deliver the promise of Scouting from Alexandria, Virginia From mfbowman@CapAccess.org Wed Nov 19 21:57:58 1997 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:57:56 -0500 (EST) From: "Michael F. Bowman" To: Kim Moye cc: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Subject: Re: Sometimes, the best intentions.. In-Reply-To: <199711191452.IAA15833@sun2177.spd.dsccc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Kim, Although Scouting is full of organization and lines of authority for trying to run a program, we should never feel so constrained that we are afraid to speak up on behalf of a Scout and work with the leader, committee, parents, or whomever to help when a Scout is in a difficult spot. Sure, we need to be careful how we go about it to avoid any public spectacles or scenes, but a few behind the scenes words are usually a good thing. What you did was commendable because you helped this young fellow to stay involved for awhile longer, perhaps long enough to learn some life skills and to grow in character. There is no price tag for the value of something like this. Mike Speaking only for myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman E-mail: mfbowman@capaccess.org Visit: ftp1.scouter.com/usscouts U. S. Scouting Service Project FTP Site Administrator (PC Area) Helping to deliver the promise of Scouting from Alexandria, Virginia From mfbowman@CapAccess.org Wed Nov 19 22:43:51 1997 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 22:43:50 -0500 (EST) From: "Michael F. Bowman" To: "Jason A. Cruse" cc: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Subject: Re: Fw: Another problem with the council In-Reply-To: <23054773458205@nemonet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Jason, You sound pretty steamed and upset. When we get really involved with our Scouts, it is easy to get pretty intense and sensitive when things don't go right, especially if it effects the boys. Sometimes it is easy to allow things to get too personal. And the next thing you know there's a little anger and perhaps bad feelings towards another Scouter. Most of us that have been doing this for awhile probably have been there and have the T-shirt. But it isn't the sort of T-shirt you really want to wear. When things get to such a point, it is best to step back and get some distance and perspective in an effort to really understand the situation. By asking for folks to react, you have taken the first step in this direction by instinct. And that is a good thing. Now what exactly happened? Your Scout Executive was willing to help out and said he would help with shirts. Great! You have a good Scout Executive who wants to help. Next thing you know, you have a handful of shorts instead from your DE and a different interpretation. Ooops. Somewhere communication broke down. Now I don't know about you, but I've never seen an organization whether private, business, charitable, or governmental that didn't have this problem regularly. Have you ever seen the Hailey's Comet skit at a training session - the one where a message that makes sense gets funnier and funnier as it is miscommunicated more and more from one person to another until it bears no resemblance to the original communication? Happens all the time and we in Scouting use this example, because we have this problem so often whether as professionals or volunteers. What happened in your situation? We don't know, but it could have gone like this: SE to Field Director at a meeting: Troop X needs some shirts for the boys and I promised some help with uniforms. We usually have some extras around, we can use whatever is available. See what you can do about it. Make sure the DE understands that we try to help out units that have real need situations so that he is aware of this and also that he knows that we don't do this for every unit. Field Director to Senior District Exec or District Director: The boss wants to help the kids in Troop X with some uniform parts from whatever we have available. See what you can do about it. Make sure the DE understands that we usually don't do this. District Director/Senior DE to DE: The boss says you are to gather up whatever uniform parts you can find around the office and give them Troop X. It usually isn't our policy to uniform Troops, so this is an exception. Now that the communication has been reinterpreted a few times, it gets a final reinterpretation going your way. There may have been a few steps more/less in the line, but the idea is the same. It is easy to get things turned around and not because someone is trying to do wrong or screwing up big time. It is because people are prone to normal human behavior and despite good intentions make small errors that get compounded. Now the question is what can you do that is constructive to help out the situation. First off, I'd write to the Scout Executive and thank him for the shorts. Heck, who's to turn down anything that would help. Let him know you appreciate what you got - it is after a gift even if you didn't like the delivery. In the same letter ask for his wise counsel on how to help the unit with shirts or any ideas he has. No doubt he'll catch the drift and do what he can to fix the situation and perhaps communications will improve. The good news is that you showed appreciation and kindness in responding, no finger pointing was needed and no anger had to be used. The SE will figure out that communications broke down and at the same time see it as a non-threatening situation where he doesn't have to deal with angry people (setting up a polarized us-them situation) and instead can focus on where the problem happened. If shirts are around, he probably will help you get them. If not, then your request for advice may prompt him to give you some extra help or ideas or even prompt him to get a donor - something that wouldn't happen in a confrontation. And if you are a bit mischievious, you might even have the Scouts wear their shorts with sweatshirts and take a picture of them in "uniform" against a background of snow - all happy grins. ;-) You know that a picture is worth a thousand words. I guess what I'm driving at is to remember that human frailty being what it is, mistakes (and lots of 'em) are going to happen including in Scouting. People are going to be far from perfect. If we set our expectations a little lower knowing these frailities, then when things come out right we are all the happier and when they don't not nearly so frustrated. In the end we end up having a better time of it and enjoy it more when we don't expect perfection and work with what we have to get the most out of it. I once worked with a Navy Captain that explained to me that the only way to determine success in managing people was to look at it this way: Most people can only deliver 50 to 75% of what we think of as perfection. If 50, 65, or 75% is their best, then our goal is to get 100% of that 50, 65, or 75% While you are at it, remember that you also won't reach 100% of perfection. So when you get somebody to do about 75% of the 75% they are capable of doing, you are succeeding. And when you reach this point both you and the other person need to stretch to even better, but both of you will have to stretch. Don't stop and rest, just keep going. I think the Captain had a point worth remembering. People will always fall short of perfection, but we have to try to get the most out of what we are capable of doing and accept that things aren't always perfect. It is a process that never ends. Yeah, your guys need to do a little better, we all do. Mike Speaking only for myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman E-mail: mfbowman@capaccess.org Visit: ftp1.scouter.com/usscouts U. S. Scouting Service Project FTP Site Administrator (PC Area) Helping to deliver the promise of Scouting from Alexandria, Virginia From mfbowman@CapAccess.org Wed Nov 19 23:20:07 1997 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 23:20:06 -0500 (EST) From: "Michael F. Bowman" To: Jonathan Dixon cc: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Subject: Re: 1953 Handbook for PL In-Reply-To: <9711182142.AA09302@rococo.Colorado.EDU> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Jon, I've noticed the same trend in BSA literature - thinner and thinner for handbooks. My 1930s vintage Scoutmaster Handbook is actually a two volume set hardbound and both volumes are twice as thick as the current issue. That set even has the menus from the National Jamboree and step by step instructions on all manner of Scoutcraft items. This led me to wonder why things have changed so much in how the books have come out. Some of the answers that I've gotten may be helpful, some not. Some of the material that used to be in a single book is now available in other publications. At first Scouting started out with the idea that a single book ought to do the trick for everything. Get the boy to buy a handbook and that's all he'll need. However, the books grew in size and cost. At the same time more and more literature was being published. Eventually an effort was made to weed out material in handbooks that was available in another publication to avoid duplication and expense. In addition some material was dropped as out-of-date or no longer part of the program. Other material that had been emphasized like cooking slipped out when cooking was no longer required for Eagle. More shifts in program resulted in more changes to the literature. Over time some of the wonderful resources that were once part of the handbooks have been weeded out maybe too much to the point of disappearing. The tough thing is that very few folks have a large grasp of all the material that has been in print vice what is now in print. And it is sometimes hard to pinpoint what isn't covered somewhere. When I talked to National about publications a few years ago with the idea of introducing a new book, I got a long story about how hard it had been to get a consensus on what to put in the last edition of the handbook. Apparently the process of arriving at what to have in the handbook engendered such emotion and feeling that the volunteers and professionals involved in the process were nearly unable to finish the effort and were a few years behind when they had targeted. Mike Walton can probably tell you who to write to better than I can. My point in writing is to give a bit of background so that you will know what you are up against. I tend to think that it would be great to have more information in the handbooks all around. To get that information there will require some pretty persuasive proposals that demonstrate why the information is important, that the information is otherwise hard to find in other literature or non-existent, and reasoning that shows why including the information will further program aims and methods. Mike Speaking only for myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman E-mail: mfbowman@capaccess.org Visit: ftp1.scouter.com/usscouts U. S. Scouting Service Project FTP Site Administrator (PC Area) Helping to deliver the promise of Scouting from Alexandria, Virginia From mfbowman@CapAccess.org Wed Nov 19 23:55:00 1997 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 23:54:59 -0500 (EST) From: "Michael F. Bowman" To: "Jason A. Cruse" Subject: Re: Fw: Another problem with the council In-Reply-To: <03520768772736@nemonet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Howdy Jason, Hmmm, I'll agree that it is hard to know a situation without living it. And living it sometimes makes it hard to understand. Yikes! I guess that is why our community online helps out. We get bits and pieces to put together and it was more than we had alone. It has helped me more than once. Thanks for the kind words too. From afar it is hard to gauge what is helpful and I'm glad that what I wrote may have been helpful. And I'm sorry that some elected to send you mail better left unwritten. I went through something similar to what you are facing in 1982 when I was fresh out of law school. Eventually I got so mad I quit for eight years. Didn't change a thing in the Council I was with in Tacoma, WA. Only thing was that I missed out on a lot of fun. It took me a few years to see what had happened with me. I rejoined when my son got in Cubs and decided then to take a more distant approach to a lot of stuff and never let it get my goat. I've had more fun and worried less. We have a few professionals here that are $$ oriented and some that are loose cannons, but most are good folks. I just try to work with what we have and get the most from it. Hence my outpouring. Despite the travails, I'm glad that you are out there giving your best to the Scouts. From the posts that you've written, I have no doubt that you are helping them to have a fine program and that a lot of their growth is a direct result of your efforts. I wish you the best. Mike Speaking only for myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman E-mail: mfbowman@capaccess.org Visit: ftp1.scouter.com/usscouts U. S. Scouting Service Project FTP Site Administrator (PC Area) Helping to deliver the promise of Scouting from Alexandria, Virginia From mfbowman@CapAccess.org Thu Nov 20 22:27:37 1997 Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 22:27:36 -0500 (EST) From: "Michael F. Bowman" To: Jim Sleezer Subject: Re: Fw: Another problem with the council In-Reply-To: <199711201756.MAA14770@cap1.CapAccess.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Jim, Thanks for the kind words. Jason wrote back a kind note as well and indicated that it helped to have a way to step back and look at things from a different view. Thanks again. Mike Speaking only for myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman E-mail: mfbowman@capaccess.org Visit: ftp1.scouter.com/usscouts U. S. Scouting Service Project FTP Site Administrator (PC Area) Helping to deliver the promise of Scouting from Alexandria, Virginia