From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Fri Oct 17 12:37:17 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id MAA19300; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:37:17 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <543073-15934>; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:28:17 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA16493; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:24:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2717; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:21:58 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5287; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:25:40 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 5283 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:24:56 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5282; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:24:55 -0500 Received: from mmac2.jccbi.gov by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 17 Oct 97 11:24:22 CDT Received: from mmacmail.jccbi.gov by mmac2.jccbi.gov (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA03693; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:21:22 -0500 Received: from ccMail by mmacmail.jccbi.gov (SMTPLINK V2.11 PreRelease 4) id AA877112659; Fri, 17 Oct 97 11:14:51 CDT Encoding: 78 Text Message-ID: <9709178771.AA877112659@mmacmail.jccbi.gov> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:14:51 CDT Reply-To: Barry C Runnels Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Barry C Runnels Subject: Embarrassed of Uniform To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: I usually stay out of this thread because there is so much passion for it and against it. But it also came up several times at our Woodbadge. After talking with several good Scouter friends, I will admit, I am in a minority with my views. We are a very boy run Troop. I know most all Troops are, but we seem to push it more than many in our District. When we started our Troop three years ago, we had four goals for our Scouts; Put primary emphasis on "boy run and leadership", to make all activities "FUN", and to use the "Eight Methods of Scouting". We also said we want to stay small, but that went out the window after the first year. We try to put the burden of the Eight Methods on the Scouts and not the adults. Yes, we as leaders have to teach, train, monitor, evaluate and cheer on our boys. We try (and fail A LOT) to let the Scouts run the program. Most experienced Troop Adults will tell you that is the hardest part of Scouting in Troops because for some reason the Scouts always want to do it different than the adults. My Scouter friends says that UNIFORM is one of the Eight Methods so they enforce it to make sure it is done. I asked them if they run the PLC meetings, Troop meetings and Patrol Corners meetings to insure the Leadership Development part of the Eight Methods. Of course not. They wouldn't admit if they did. Many leaders use the Uniform Method as an excuse to make Scouts dress they way the adults want. If the Scouts are capable of leading their Troop program, aren't they capable of deciding how a Troop should dress. One leader asked me, "what if they decide to not where any part of the BSA uniform?". I say, "then we aren't doing a very good job as adult leaders educating the Scouts to why the uniform is important to our Scouting program". That is why we are there. If the boys belive the uniforms are important to THEIR program, then they will wear them in the Troop. If we push it, then we take away control of one method of Scouting and they are only doing what the adults are making them do and left with only have seven methods to work with. It is a lot easier for them to enforce uniforms when they believe in them than it is for adults to push those nerdy things on them when they think it has no benefit to Their Troop. As adults, we are their role models and example of how adults should act. Youths learn most of their behavior by WATCHING other peoples behavior. Either we trust them or we don't. Sometimes we have to step in and point out why some of their decisions may be dangerous or not conducive to Scouting. But most of the time we let them learn from their decisions. We adults have to present a positive image and example. Through our example, we can show how to properly wear the uniform, but we better be able to explain why we wear it, other than the Eight Method tells us to. If the adults in your Troop don't like to wear their uniform, then they don't understand how it helps their Troop program. It has not been explained that a uniform identifies their Team. They haven't learned that it puts everyone on the same level and forces the actions and achievements of the individual to stand out instead of clothing they wear. They don't understand the Eight Methods of Scouting and they don't understand it hurts the program more than they helps it. They have not been taught the basics of Scouting. I am not a anti uniform person. I really enjoyed the uniform part of Woodbadge. I enjoy being part of a group that strives for the same goal and let our personalties, individual skills and achievements show our differences in a Team that is all dressed the same. I want to give that to my Scouts. Personally, what I would like to also see from you guys are more good reasons for us to explain why uniforms are important to a good program. Give us more tools to take back to our Scouts and adults, so they can say, yes I see the importance in wearing the uniform. Give us the basics so we can let the Scouts decide what is important for their Troop. Hope I wasn't to long. I have to get better at showing my view in shorter sentences. YIS Barry Runnels Troop 386 Edmond OK From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Mon Oct 20 18:09:11 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id SAA01680; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 18:09:11 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541654-15713>; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 18:01:42 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA22797; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:59:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8990; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:56:37 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6146; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:00:24 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 6138 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:59:32 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6137; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:59:31 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Mon, 20 Oct 97 16:59:28 CDT Received: from basfzgw.basf-corp.com (basfzgw.basf-corp.com) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IP1CFA0JZ4001ED0@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for Scouts-L@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:57:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from basfygw by basfzgw with SMTP (MMTA) with ESMTP; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:50:30 -0400 Received: from intmaila.basf-corp.com (actually host intermail) by basfygw with SMTP (MMTA) with ESMTP; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:50:24 -0400 X400-Received: by /PRMD=BASF/ADMD=TELEMAIL/C=US/; Relayed; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:49:39 -0400 X400-Received: by mta intmaila.basf-corp.com in /PRMD=BASF/ADMD=TELEMAIL/C=US/; Relayed; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:49:39 -0400 X400-Received: by mta BASFM00 in /PRMD=BASF/ADMD=TELEMAIL/C=US/; Relayed; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:54:31 -0400 X400-Received: by /PRMD=BASF/ADMD=TELEMAIL/C=US/; Relayed; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 06:19:56 -0400 Alternate-recipient: Allowed Content-identifier: CSI NC V3.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X400-Content-type: P2-1984 (2) X400-MTS-identifier: [/PRMD=BASF/ADMD=TELEMAIL/C=US/;971020101956] X400-Originator: johnsoce@basf-corp.com X400-Recipients: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Message-ID: <30E97D7E.MAI*/S=JohnsoCE/OU=NPS01/OU=CHARLOTTE/PRMD=BASF/ADMD=TELEMAIL/C=US/@MHS> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 06:19:56 -0400 Reply-To: "Johnson, Charles E." Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "Johnson, Charles E." Subject: Uniforms, Wood Badge Ticket Item X-To: "Scouts-L (Post)" To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: I just finished the SR-200 Wood Badge course last night. If I can stay awake, I'll start working my ticket today. One of my ticket items is to promote uniform wearing by starting and maintaining a uniform bank for the troop. So, first, I want to use my resource of Scouts-L and invite those of you that have extra uniforms lying around just taking up space to e-mail me privately so that I can help you get rid of them. :-) I also want to echo much of what's been said concerning uniform wearing by the Scouts. When I was a Scout I was scared to death that one of my schoolmates would see me in my uniform, at first. So, I think we need to encourage the Scouts to wear their full uniforms. However, we must realize that their fears are real. When I began in Scouts our troop didn't wear full uniforms; merely a Scout shirt with most of the insignia attached. By his gentle persuasion and his example (mostly the latter), my Scoutmaster was gradually able to get us all to wear our full uniforms consistently. Looking back I realize why Uniforming deserves to be one of the eight methods. Wearing our uniforms affected our attitude and that had an effect on our behavior. When we were in full uniform we acted like Scouts. When we only wore our Scout shirts we acted like a bunch of kids pretending to be Scouts. We need to encourage, entice, and cajole the Scouts to wear their uniforms. We should praise them openly when they do so. But mostly we need to set the example. It's their troop we need to convince them that it will make their troop better if they'll wear their uniforms. On the other hand, I'd rather have a boy attending his Scout meetings in street clothes than have him not attending at all. It's kind of hard to achieve the Aims of Scouting if they aren't even there. YiS, Chuck Johnson ASM Troop 376, Palmetto Council, Rock Hill, South Carolina Chuck.Johnson@basf.com From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Tue Oct 21 14:35:29 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id OAA17983; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:35:29 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542050-15198>; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:27:38 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA16397; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:27:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2839; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:24:11 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0351; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:28:25 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 0345 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:27:59 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0344; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:27:58 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 21 Oct 97 13:27:56 CDT Received: from hil-img-1.compuserve.com (hil-img-1.compuserve.com) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IP2JB9RL68001DY8@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for SCOUTS-L@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:26:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hil-img-1.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.7) id OAA28926 for SCOUTS-L@TCU.EDU; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:25:50 -0400 (EDT) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <199710211425_MC2-24A3-D61E@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:25:06 -0400 Reply-To: Joseph Alessi Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Joseph Alessi Subject: Re: Embarrassed of Uniform X-To: Scouts-L Mail List To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: John Peschken wrote: >> As I understand it, there is no requirement for the whole uniform. Some leeway in defining each troops uniform has been written into the rules. << I don't think that this is the case. If you look in the handbook, it describes the field uniform. It doesn't say "wear the parts your troop likes". This "leeway" is, IMHO, just something that local scouter's have put in that is not written down anywhere. The word "uniform" means the same clothing for everyone. A Scout in Peoria should wear the same uniform (except for council strip and troop number) as a scout in Nome, Alaska. Now I do think that a unit shouldn't say "buy a uniform for the next meeting or you are out". I think that each unit should have a plan for providing each scout that needs one with a uniform ("experienced" uniform bank, fund raising sources where the scout can earn his uniform, direct = subsidies where needed). While I strongly believe in full uniforming as one of the methods of scouting, the uniforming in my unit probably runs about 85-90% on a normal basis. There are scouts who come from work or sports and don't bring a uniform. But probably the biggest cause of lack of uniforming is outgrowing their existing uniform. It usually takes them a month or two to get a replacement when the pants get too short (the most common problem for these growing boys)! YIS Joseph A. Alessi in Ozwin 2.14 JosephAlessi@Compuserve.com District Advancement Chair, Lafayette District ASM Troop 313 Advisor to the Treasurer, Unami Lodge I used to be an Owl From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Tue Oct 21 16:08:41 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id QAA12382; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:08:41 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541170-15196>; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:00:41 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA23762; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:59:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4454; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:56:37 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0816; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:00:55 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 0812 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:00:12 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0811; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:00:11 -0500 Received: from omeganet.es by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 21 Oct 97 15:00:08 CDT Received: from omeganet by omeganet.es (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA14917; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:52:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.50) Message-ID: <199710212052.VAA14917@omeganet.es> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 22:00:38 +0000 Reply-To: breeden Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List Comments: Authenticated sender is From: breeden Subject: scout uniforms To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: In reference to the issue of uniforms for scouting and the issue of having complete uniforms vice partial uniforms. It would seem from the social issues facing the youth of today we should be more concerned with keeping these boys and young men involved in a setting that promotes the values inherent in the scouting program vice squabbling over wether a child, young man is fully outfitted in a scout uniform or a partial uniform. Granted the uniform is an important aspect of the program however there are a number of street gangs and other similar programs out there that are more than willing to pick up the pieces. I personally would rather see a child, young man attending a pack/troop functions with a partial uniform than watch that same child walking down the street wearing the colors of some street gang. Now maybe i have missed the main scope of the issue being addressed but as long as i look upon the faces of those boys standing there during a pack meeting for the younger boys or a troop meeting for those young men then i think i'll settle with the trade off. But i do pose one question, when you deal with a young man / child from a depressed area and the parents may not be able to afford a full uniform are you gonna pull them off to the side and tell them "Sorry but you can't be here cause you don't have a full uniform?" but then again who among us is gonna go and tell the parents we don't think they are so poor off that they can't afford that uniform? If i have offended you with these words then i appoligize since you must have some concern for tomorrows leaders and society or you would not be involved with Scouting, all i ask is remember there are others out there who are more than ready and willing to pick up these pieces that maybe lost as we squabble over the issue of complete or partial uniforms. Carl Breeden Cub Master pack 280 Rota sp Merit Badge Counselor Troop 73 Rota, Sp Committee Member Pack 280, Troop 73 also K. Breeden is my wife and I fully agree with her opion also. From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Tue Oct 21 09:25:45 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA24432; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:25:45 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542040-15196>; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:17:58 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA18639; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:17:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4684; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:14:30 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8641; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:18:47 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 8637 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:18:11 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8636; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:18:10 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 21 Oct 97 08:18:07 CDT Received: from smtp02.worldbank.org (smtp02.worldbank.org) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IP28I9307K001FXF@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for Scouts-L@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:16:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from WBLN0014.worldbank.org ([138.220.29.7]) by worldbank.org (PMDF V5.1-8 #16195) with SMTP id <01IP2ADKNVTA90Q68M@worldbank.org> for Scouts-L@tcu.edu; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:09:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by WBLN0014.worldbank.org(Lotus SMTP MTA Internal build - SMTP TEAM v1.1.03 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: <85256537.0044933E.00@WBLN0014.worldbank.org> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:03:52 -0400 Reply-To: "Kim B. Hannemann" Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List Comments: RFC822 error: Invalid RFC822 field - "(436.3 7-23-1997)) id 85256537.0048CBBF ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09: 15:07 -0400". Rest of header flushed. From: "Kim B. Hannemann" Subject: Re: Uniforms, Rules and Methods X-To: Scouts-L@tcu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: First let me say that I admire Milt both for the things he has to say and for the things he does in Scouting. I have been the beneficiary of both. But on the topic of uniforms he, and others, confuse rules and requirements with methods. Rules are used to ensure safety. Requirements are used to ensure standards of achievement. The uniform is a method used to achieve the aims of Scouting - to repeat Mike Bowman's listing from yesterday*: ---------------------------------------------- AIMS OF SCOUTING To Build Character To Foster Citizenship To Develop Fitness METHODS OF CUB SCOUTING Home and Neighborhood Centered Parent Involvement Advancement Plan The Den Ideals Uniform Activity Program METHODS OF BOY SCOUTING Ideals Patrols Outdoors Advancement Personal Growth Adult Association Leadership Development Uniform ----------------------------------------------- Wearing the uniform helps bring the group together by giving them something visual in common; and at the same time it sets them apart as a group from other groups. It can serve to reflect the wearer's pride and comfort in belonging to the group, but only when the wearer in fact HAS pride in the group. As Scouters we already have pride in belonging to the Scouts, and often we have pride in belonging to our Troop, which makes it easier for us to wear the uniform. Also, we know the difference between embarrassment and self-consciousness (I am never embarrassed to wear the uniform in an "out of place' situation, but I do feel self-conscious.) When a Scout has pride in his unit, he has no problem with the uniform when he is with his unit. When he is alone, he is not only representing his unit, but also the BSA, about which he knows a lot less than you do; and himself, about whom we hope he is proud but self-esteem is a fragile thing; and he has to deal with the "out of place" self-consciousness I noted above. So, IMHO, building unit pride is the largest single factor in developing the confidence to wear the unit uniform. The methods feed off each other - a good program of advancement opportunity, outdoor activity, patrol competition, etc. is what builds pride in the unit and enables Scouts to feel good about belonging to the unit and being identified with it through the uniform. The uniform reinforces that pride and enhances feeling of belonging, which builds self-esteem and leads to development of character, citizenship and fitness. Scouters who have pride in the unit will set the first example; then the older Scouts, especially the TLC. The younger Scouts will follow. In our unit, the TLC, with guidance from the SM, sets the uniform policy of the Troop. Often this is the Troop T-shirt but it always includes Scout shorts or pants. If they did not have pride in their Troop they would ignore the policy. But they do have that pride, and they do wear their uniforms. Good grief, I do prattle on . . . Kim Hannemann (Beaver, NCAC 82-65) khannemann@worldbank.org Troop/Post 1140, Springfield, VA http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/2801 [*Kim's aside - it really surprised me that a Wood Badger (and a Beaver, no less!) asked yesterday, "...what are the 8 methods of Scouting?"] From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Wed Oct 22 19:53:14 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id TAA01937; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:53:14 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542799-27673>; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:30:47 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA01516; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:41:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0781; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:38:21 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6528; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:42:20 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 6524 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:41:40 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6523; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:41:39 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 22 Oct 97 17:41:35 CDT Received: from tthsc6.lubb.ttuhsc.edu by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IP46H4CR7K001XZ2@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for SCOUTS-L@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:39:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cs060.lubb.ttuhsc.edu ([198.213.108.38]) by tthsc3.lubb.ttuhsc.edu with SMTP; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:39:35 -0500 X-Sender: CSRTJ@MAILHOST.TTUHSC.EDU MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971022224016.0069b314@MAILHOST.TTUHSC.EDU> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:40:16 -0500 Reply-To: Russ Jones Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Russ Jones Subject: Re: Embarrassed of Uniform X-To: SCOUTS-L@TCU.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: At 04:14 PM 10/21/97 -0400, Cheryl Singhal wrote: >But that makes them non-uniform. Rank patches, yes, OK, but if we're >going to be hard-nosed about it, the Army in Peoria and the Army in >Alaska don't differentiate. Not so, Cheryl. Each and every military command has its own distinctive patches and insignia. One familiar with such matters can tell from what is worn on the uniform not only the rank of the soldier, but also whether he (or she) is assigned to the 82nd Airborne or the 7th Cavalry, whether he is an artilleryman or an infantryman or a quartermaster, whether he is an expert marksman or not, whether he has successfully completed jump school or not, and so forth. The point is, few if any of the many organizations which are uniformed permit--let alone encourage--substitutions in the prescribed uniform: not the military, not the police, not the fire department, not the football team, not the band, not the cheerleading squad. Contrary to what seems to have been implied by some who evidently do not regard the wearing of the complete uniform as an important Scouting method which ought to be strongly encouraged, it is doubtful that anyone is advocating kicking boys out of the troop for failure to have and wear a complete uniform. However, as has been pointed out by others, strongly encouraging the Scouts to wear the complete uniform--along with providing the economically-disadvantaged Scout with one or more alternative means of acquiring one--can pay big dividends in the way the Scouts feel about themselves as Scouts and about the program of the troop. One wonders if those who fail to grasp the advantages of the uniform as a method of achieving Scouting's aims might also be giving short shrift to the use of some or all of the other seven of Scouting's methods, just as one wonders whether a laissez-faire attitude toward the wearing of the uniform may, in reality, be encouraging our young people to believe that they need observe only those practices and conventions with which they agree. Particularly nonsensical is the argument against complete uniforms on grounds of economic disadvantage. Ignoring for the moment that a great many parents who "can't afford the pants" seem somehow to be able to come up with the high-dollar sneakers, the designer blue jeans, and whatever is required for the sport their son is participating in at the moment (which probably says more about the parents' priorities than it does about their economic status), unfortunate economic circumstances that make it difficult to purchase the complete uniform are perhaps one of the best reasons to find some way of obtaining one, since the uniform makes it impossible--or at least difficult--to distinguish the wealthy Scout from the impoverished one. This is one of the expressly stated purposes of the uniform, from the mouth of the founder himself. If there is a real hardship, there are garage sales, "experienced" uniform banks, designated money-earning opportunities, and the outright generosity of many a chartering organization which can help provide solutions to the problem. Boy Scout-aged boys are frequently "embarrassed" by a number of things that are ultimately good for them (orthodontic appliances and public displays of parental affection being two such things that readily come to mind). With most things, the degree of self-consciousness is inversely proportional to the familiarity of the situation, and the uniform is no exception: the more they wear it, the less self-conscious about it they will be, until finally they may even be proud to display their Scouting accomplishments in the window of their college dorm room. Gently but consistently encouraging them toward wearing the complete uniform provides plenty of character-building opportunities for them, as well as leadership opportunities for the adult leader. When used correctly, the methods of Scouting--all eight of them--work. Failing to use all eight is failing to use all the tools at our disposal. Yours in Scouting, Russ Jones Scoutmaster, Troop 575 South Plains Council, Lubbock, Texas Eagle Scout, class of 1965 "I used to be a fox..." SC-295 "I used to be a staffer..." SC-430, SR-110, SR-206