From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Sun Oct 26 02:48:40 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id CAA02549; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 02:48:40 -0500 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541984-11511>; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 02:40:43 -0500 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA19712; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 02:30:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2057; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 03:27:31 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0133; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 01:38:11 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 0127 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 01:37:30 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0126; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 01:37:28 -0500 Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Sun, 26 Oct 97 01:37:24 CDT Received: by corn.cso.niu.edu id AA11403 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for list scouts-l ); Sun, 26 Oct 1997 01:35:25 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 01:35:24 -0500 Reply-To: golden cliff Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: golden cliff Subject: Re: Uniform thoughts To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: First, let me apologize for sending a couple short personal responses to the list by mistake. I keep hitting the wrong key. I also apologize for the length of this post. Sorry everyone. Uniforming is always an interesting topic to read about on Scouts-L. Good intelligent people discussing a popular subject, with much variety of opinion. I have observed in BSA publications that the 8 methods of Scouting have always been listed in a specific order; Ideals being first, Uniform being last. It's not an alphabetical order, it's a priority order. - Ideals - Patrols - Outdoors - Advancement - Personal Growth - Adult Association - Leadership - Uniform Can anyone find an official listing where they are listed in a different order? Some people seem to feel Uniform should be much higher on the list. Of course all 8 methods are a necessary part of Scouting. What level must we achieve to "qualify" as using a method successfully? Is there a list published somewhere? The only official listing I can think of offhand is the Quality Unit Award. Uniforming is not a major component of that award. If the national council was as concerned about uniforming as some members of this list, I would think there would be a starred item requiring xx% of Scouts earning xx points on an annual Uniform Inspection. There is no such requirement. Some on this list seem to suggest a troop requiring only Scout Shirts, is something less than a quality unit. Half a uniform = half a program. A Scout in only half in a uniform is only half in Scouting. I must respectfully disagree. I am curious of those troops requiring full uniforms, do you require them all the time, all meetings, all activities? Full uniforming--full time. Full uniforming--part time. Partial uniforming--part time. Which is practiced by your unit? Considering the importance given to the full uniform, at which times is the full uniform not important enough to wear? Are there any units that require full field uniforms for meetings, and full BSA activity uniforms (polo shirt & shorts) for activities? Anyone require Smokey Bear hats and red jackets? Buying all uniform parts in the catalog for their intended functions would really dent the wallet. I have hiked Philmont Scout Ranch several times. I've encountered very few full uniforms in the backcountry (except for Philmont rangers--even they weren't 100% official --wool hiking socks instead of Scout socks--for good reason) Philmont is a highlight Scouting experience where unity, pride, and Scoutlike attitude is essential. If those are the things a uniform helps to accomplish, why doesn't Philmont "require" full uniforms on the trail? I see full uniforms in base camp, but base camp is not where the most significant aspects of Philmont are experienced. If you climb Baldy without a full uniform, is that experience somehow diminished? If there is a healthy growing Scout in my troop, I would rather see him spend $200/year on outdoor programs rather than $200 on uniforming he is constantly outgrowing. The outdoor method overlaps with nearly all other methods of Scouting. That's where I want to see our fundraising dollars going. Outdoor method I consider much more important than uniforming. It's not that I don't believe in uniforming, I have a significant investment in shirts, pants, etc. It is a matter of priorities, and uniforming is not at the top of my list. From the BSA literature I've read, it's not at the top of national's either. (of 8 methods, it ranks #8) Is the method written as "Uniform" or "Full Uniform". If a unit is encouraging the wearing of the Scout shirt, isn't that using the "Uniform" method? Isn't the Scout shirt the most significant part of the uniform? A Scout's uniform shirt can display pride in his unit, his advancement achievements, remind him he is a Scout, and provide a sense of unity with fellow troop members while also acting as an outward symbol of Scouting to the community. The shirt alone can do all that. The pants don't add any information about the Scout or his unit. There are other aspects about the pants... Positive side-- - Makes the boys more uniform looking and sharper in appearance. Negative side-- - Doubles the cost of the uniform. - Most easily outgrown uniform piece requiring more frequent replacement, (further escalating uniform costs). - More difficult to fit, requiring several sizes stocked in a "uniform exchange" to be effective. Shirts are much easier to fit to a boy. - No longer have convenient and popular cargo pockets. (I miss those) - Looks dumb without the official belt--more $$ spent-- - Not practical for many outdoor activities. --Poor material for cold weather camping. --Inappropriate for long distance bicycle touring. --Philmont Wranglers require jeans for Cavalcades, not uniform pants --etc., etc., etc. The arguments that the police, fire dept., and sports teams require full uniforms don't matter to me. We are not arresting criminals, fighting fires, or scoring field goals. Clothes can distinguish wealthy from impoverished, a uniform makes them more the same. That was one of Baden-Powell's intentions. Today status doesn't end with shirts and pants, there's sport shoes, team jackets, cars, homes, etc. Regardless of full uniform the boys know who is wealthy or not. B-P created Scouting in a very class conscious society near the turn of the century, things have changed a bit since then. What uniform should be used by a troop? How do they establish effective uniform method. I think that can vary greatly. A long time back on Scouts-L there was a story of Scouting in the emerging democracies of eastern europe. One Scouting group adopted a colored hat as their uniform, they could afford no more. One little boy had his father's oversized cap which he wore with great pride. It symbolized a new hope, a brighter future. It symbolized Scouting for him, and anyone would have to fight to take it away from him. This rag tag group of boys with only a colored cap as their uniform found unity, pride, and their symbol of Scouting. That's what the Uniform method is about, whether the cost is $2 or $100, whether it covers one's head, or is a uniform from head to toe. Scouting is about what we instill within boys. It's not about how snappy we dress them. Few troops could afford full uniforms back in the depression era of the 1930's, were they less because of it? Whatever your troop encourages with regard to uniforming, if it instills personal pride, generates group unity, promotes scoutlike actions, and is identifiable to the community as a Scouting group doing positive actions, then in my opinion you are effectively using the Uniform method of Scouting. The uniform method is measured by it's positive effect on boys. It's not measured by the dollars spent or the yards of cotton/polyester we buy from national supply. My troop encourages Scouts to wear the Scout Shirt as their uniform. Until my PLC changes that, that is what we'll do. (Personally, I own several full uniforms.) If you have a fully uniformed troop, great! More power to you. You've accomplished a perfect score on Uniform method. I do respect and admire that very much. But don't trash those that wear their Scout shirts just as proudly (with jeans). Now, let's move on to a much more important topic. How many troops out there provide a "full outdoor program", including year round monthly camping trips, day trips, summer camp, and a high adventure program for older Scouts? Scouting was born outdoors, on an island in the North Sea. That's where it lives and breathes. That's where the methods of Scouting become actions. Scouting wasn't born in a fitting room. You don't outgrow the outdoors. YIS, Cliff Golden Scoutmaster Troop 33; DeKalb, Illinois Three Fires Council BSA c60clg1@corn.cso.niu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~CGolden/troop33 --- Sorry for the long post. I couldn't hold it in any longer. --- From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Sun Oct 26 12:14:17 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id MAA20966; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:14:17 -0500 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541775-213>; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:07:19 -0500 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA16944; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:07:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8986; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:04:05 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0785; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:06:32 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 0781 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:05:52 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0780; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:05:50 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Sun, 26 Oct 97 11:05:48 CDT Received: from tthsc6.lubb.ttuhsc.edu by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IP9DV5P6HS002AP7@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for SCOUTS-L@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:05:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from default ([198.213.97.206]) by tthsc3.lubb.ttuhsc.edu with SMTP; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:05:39 -0600 X-Sender: CSRTJ@MAILHOST.TTUHSC.EDU MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971026170536.00ef0b8c@MAILHOST.TTUHSC.EDU> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:05:36 -0600 Reply-To: Russ Jones Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Russ Jones Subject: Re: Uniform thoughts X-To: SCOUTS-L@TCU.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: At 01:35 AM 10/26/97 -0500, Cliff Golden wrote, in part: >I have observed in BSA publications that the 8 methods of Scouting have >always been listed in a specific order; Ideals being first, Uniform >being last. It's not an alphabetical order, it's a priority order. > >- Ideals >- Patrols >- Outdoors >- Advancement >- Personal Growth >- Adult Association >- Leadership >- Uniform Sorry, Cliff, but your reasoning here simply does not hold water. If the order of this list were meant to reflect BSA's priorities, then it would somehow be more important for a Scout to be a member of a patrol than for him to experience personal growth, and somehow more desirable for him to merely go camping or be awarded rank advancement than for him to acquire leadership skills. This list is simply what it appears to be: a list of the eight methods of Scouting, in no particular order. It is not intended to assign any greater importance to one method over another, nor should it be used to give credence to the relatively low priority you evidently assign to the uniform. What many seem to fail to realize is that "uniform" is a collective noun. According to page 566 of the Boy Scout Handbook, in head-to-toe order "the Scout uniform consists of a cap or a broad-brim (sic) hat, a shirt, trousers or shorts, a belt, socks, and shoes or hiking boots." Anything less is not the uniform, only a part of the uniform. If one wears the shirt with jeans, one is wearing part of the uniform, but he is not in uniform. As to when and where the uniform should be worn, page 567 of the Boy Scout Handbook says to "wear (the) complete uniform proudly and correctly at all Scouting events," including "patrol and troop meetings, hikes, camps, and rallies," when appearing "before a board of review or a court of honor," when taking part "in Scout service projects in (the) community and in the backcountry," and "during Scouting Anniversary Week in February." Unlike what you mistakenly allege is implied by the order in which the methods are listed, this is explicit guidance from the BSA. Except for the neckerchief and the style of headgear, which are specific unit options, the only variation the literature authorizes is that "Scouts involved in conservation projects may wear work pants or jeans with their Scout shirts" (Boy Scout Handbook, page 566). It seems to me that the fact that complete uniforms are the norm at Philmont base camp, and that the rangers wear uniform pants or shorts even in the backcountry, is more a point in favor of full uniform usage than against it. No one is arguing that one should wear the complete uniform when it is not appropriate to the activity--I would not want Scouts painting the Scout Hut in uniform or hiking in Scout socks, for example--but for troop, patrol, and PLC meetings, traveling to and from weekend campouts, and especially for boards of review, courts of honor, color guard functions, and virtually any activity before the public eye, the uniform is just as functional as jeans and should be worn. I do not necessarily believe that units which only require half the uniform are only providing half the program. However, it does raise the question. Ideals are one of Scouting's methods, and what those ideals are is fully defined. Advancement is a method, and what advancement consists of is fully defined. The uniform is a method, and the uniform is fully defined. If a unit does not fully implement the defined uniform, might it not also be failing to fully implement the ideals? If it picks and chooses from among the parts of the uniform, leaving some parts out and yet still calling the remainder "the uniform," might it not also be picking and choosing from the advancement method as well, leaving some parts out and still claiming to be correctly implementing the advancement method? You ask how many units are providing a "full outdoor program" (which yours presumably does), in a tone which indicates that you feel others ought to be doing so; yet you argue against a "full uniform program." Your priorities are evident, but the BSA does not assign priorities to its methods. All eight methods are meant to be fully implemented, and anything less than full implementation of all eight is less than full implementation of Scouting. Does this mean that you do not offer a quality program? Not necessarily; but it does mean that your program is not all that it could be or should be. No unit's program is perfect; there is always room for improvement, even in the best of them. Full implementation of the uniform method is but one area in which many units could improve. Full implementation of all eight methods should be the goal--impossible to achieve, perhaps, but the nearer one comes to achieving that goal, the higher the quality of the program is bound to be. The uniform is defined by BSA. It is not within the authority of either the PLC or the adult leadership to decide which parts of it to omit, any more than it is within their authority to decide which rank advancements to omit or which ideals to omit. The uniform is a method of Scouting, equal in importance to each of the other seven methods, and I challenge you to find any official policy indicating otherwise. According to the inside front cover of the latest issue of the Insignia Guide, official policy is that "the leaders of Scouting--both volunteer and professional--promote the wearing of the CORRECT COMPLETE UNIFORM on all suitable occasions" (emphasis added). Moreover, this policy may not be "added to or changed in any way unless approved by the National Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America through its Program Group Committee." Yes, the uniform is relatively expensive. Yes, it is not suitable for all the things that Scouts do. Yes, the boys outgrow them. Yes, not all the boys want to wear it. But failing to promote its wear on all suitable occasions is a violation of official BSA policy, and "a Scout is obedient." Yours in Scouting, Russ Jones Scoutmaster, Troop 575 South Plains Council, Lubbock, Texas Eagle Scout, class of 1965 "I used to be a fox..." SC-295 "I used to be a staffer..." SC-430, SR-110, SR-206 From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Fri Oct 24 13:55:24 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA08365; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:55:24 -0400 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541264-18487>; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:47:27 -0400 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA07357; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:46:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1697; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:43:46 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5468; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:48:19 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 5462 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:47:32 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5461; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:47:30 -0500 Received: from spot.Colorado.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 24 Oct 97 12:47:22 CDT Received: from localhost (amick@localhost) by spot.Colorado.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p) with SMTP id LAA27092; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:45:18 -0600 (MDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:45:17 -0600 Reply-To: Amick Robert Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Amick Robert Subject: Re: Uniform thoughts X-To: "Godbout, Marc" To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: Mark raises some interesting ideas. The current uniform was designed by Oscar De La Renta, after approval by a national committee formed to propose a revised design in the late 1970's. A friend of mine sat on that committee and indicated that one proposal was to adopt a dove gray shirt and navy blue pants (the rationale was that if the youth decided to not obtain uniform trousers, the blue jeans they typically wear would be very similar to the navy blue uniform trousers). Obviously this proposal was not adopted, but was an effort to accommodate the fact that many youth cannot or will not purchase uniform trousers for whatever reason. The unique uniforming design is, and has for some time, been utilized by Exploring specialty units, and ranges from uniforms similar to those worn by public safety officials if that is their specialty (e.g., police, fire, paramedics); or more contemporary and informal uniforms such as polo shirts with embroidered or silk-screened logos and unique identifications. Exploring continues to maintain standard forest green uniforms and Sea Exploring has a variety of nautical uniforms (whites, blues, khakis, dungarees) that can be worn for formal occasions, or for activities. Our post utilizes the forest green shirts for formal events and meetings, and has a polo shirt with embroidered logo for activiities and travel purposes. There certainly needs to be a standard uniform on which emblems and insignia can be appropriately displayed; moreover, at special events such as courts of honor, ceremonies, recognition dinners, uniforming is a significant aspect. Jamborees and similar events which involve tours and travel, as well as arena shows, present Scouting in the national "showcase" and uniforming becomes highly symbolic of the world brotherhood of Scouting. Some time ago, a discussion on this list suggested that uniforming should perhaps be expanded in terms of functionality, specifically for field use. A recommendation was made that perhaps some of the mountaineering and outdoor specialty manufacturers could provide state of the art fabrics and designs which would be ruggedized and suitable for protection from a variety of environments. Additionally, styles that youth appreciate and that are more acceptable to them could possibly result in them being worn more willingly in public settings, and still identify them as members of Scouting. Best wishes, Bob Amick, Explorer Advisor, High Adventure Explorer Post 72, Boulder, CO From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Sun Oct 26 13:14:21 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA01137; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 13:14:21 -0500 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541908-216>; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 13:07:13 -0500 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA19951; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 13:07:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9659; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 13:03:59 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0938; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:06:34 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 0934 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:05:57 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0933; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:05:56 -0500 Received: from mail1.infinet.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Sun, 26 Oct 97 12:05:54 CDT Received: from default (nwk-pm3-1-a006.infinet.com [208.137.27.6]) by mail1.infinet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA14872 for ; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 13:05:30 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: shoar@infinet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971026142351.006b4e98@infinet.com> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 14:23:51 +0000 Reply-To: Steve Hoar Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Steve Hoar Subject: Re: Uniform thoughts To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19971026170536.00ef0b8c@MAILHOST.TTUHSC.EDU> Status: RO X-Status: D Having spent a career in the military as have many of you, I imagine you all heard the old joke about the difference between the Boy Scouts and the military. The difference was stated that the Boy Scouts had adult leaders. I really wonder how many real scout 'leaders' we have. We have a lot of fine organizers, managers, and administrators. But I see a real lack of leaders. What do I look for in a leader? Well, he leads by example. First, he would always have the complete uniform and if necessary have if fitted so that his gut doesn't stretch the shirt so much that he becomes a laughing stock to the boys. How can you expect him to look sharp in uniform when you look like Shamu the whale in spandex. Second, He would adhere to the BSA policy and never let the boys see him mocking policy by smoking in uniform in front of them. (Practice what you preach). The boys know you are breaking policy and in your willingness to defy policy you have discredited yourself in the eyes of the scouts and you will find it very hard to earn the respect that is needed if you expect to be an effective adult leader. They will simply say 'Why should I listen to him...even he can't follow the rules' A leader would be able to give a better reason for uniform than 'you gotta because it is BSA policy'. Kids question everything and your answer has to have substance and reason. Answers that come across sounding like 'I am the adult and you are the kid' will never work. By your example, dedication, caring, concern, and commitment to everyone of them you have to become the kind of person they want to emulate. If you set the example, they will follow. That is the kind of leadership I am talking about. In sports the kids will listen to the coach who works as hard as they do and they will strive to be like him. Remember, scouting is a voluntary organization. You cannot force compliance but you can lead to compliance. You cannot push a string. The kids rarely care about how many knots you have on your shirt or if you 'used to be a wombat'. They laugh at you behind your back about your hair in a pony tail and the beads you wear around your neck as you look like 'indian joe'.(hmmm..all that stuff isnt in the uniform guide either) They will care if you have time for them. They will follow if you walk beside them as they walk down that very scary road of growing up. They will care for that pat on the back and your smile of pride in their accomplishments. Honestly doing all those things you will begin to grow as a real 'adult' leader and in turn the young men will follow your lead in applying all the elements of scouting including uniforming. On my journey through life I have met many a man (woman) who could cite me chapter and verse on laws and regulations but didn't have the common sense to come in out of the rain. Read me or the boys the regs and we will both tune you out. Get down and camp in the mud with me and show me how to start a fire in the rain and I will begin to think about following you. Just shut your mouth for a second and show me, by example, where you want to go. That is the kind of adult leadership we need. It is really too bad that so much of our adult leadership forgot about what it was like to grow up. Steve in Newark. From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Mon Oct 27 06:38:48 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id GAA15524; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 06:38:48 -0500 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542673-16735>; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 06:31:51 -0500 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA08144; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 06:31:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2838; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 06:28:19 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2900; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 03:13:27 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 2896 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 03:12:37 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2895; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 03:12:36 -0500 Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Mon, 27 Oct 97 03:12:32 CDT Received: by corn.cso.niu.edu id AA13883 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L ); Mon, 27 Oct 1997 03:12:24 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 03:12:23 -0600 Reply-To: golden cliff Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: golden cliff Subject: Re: Uniform thoughts X-To: Russ Jones To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19971026170536.00ef0b8c@MAILHOST.TTUHSC.EDU> Status: RO X-Status: > Sorry, Cliff, but your reasoning here simply does not hold water. If the > order of this list were meant to reflect BSA's priorities, then it would > somehow be more important for a Scout to be a member of a patrol than for > him to experience personal growth, Sorry Russ, I respect you from reading your posts and know you have better training than what is demonstrated by these remarks. I must believe your comments were the result of your haste to respond. Patrol Method means much more than being a member of a patrol. What about boys leading one another and working together toward common goals, certainly potential for citizenship, character and fitness there. Patrol Method is not only a way of organizing boys, but more importantly it provides a structure in which to experience personal growth. > and somehow more desirable for him to > merely go camping or be awarded rank advancement than for him to acquire > leadership skills. Outdoor Method incorporates practicing citizenship, using and developing leadership skills, fitness opportunities, and character building among many other things. It is where Scouting is put into practice. It was the outdoor method that B-P chose as the basis for his experiment on Brownsea Island, that was clearly more than merely going camping. Likewise, Advancement is not merely about receiving awards? The Leadership method is certainly important, but it is also incorporated into Outdoor method and Advancement method. The eight methods are not easily separated since they do overlap. I do appreciate that all 8 methods should be incorporated into a Scouting program. I merely question the payback of the "full" uniform given it's high expense. > This list is simply what it appears to be: a list of > the eight methods of Scouting, in no particular order. It is not intended > to assign any greater importance to one method over another... Sorry Russ, I don't believe all methods are equal. You have yet to convince me. Consider... Scout #1. Believes in Scouting Ideals but doesn't own a Full Uniform. Scout #2. Wears a Full Uniform but doesn't believe in Scouting Ideals. I think believing in "Ideals" is far more important than wearing a "Full Uniform". Are the two boys above really equal? > As to when and where the uniform should be worn, page 567 of the Boy Scout > Handbook says to "wear (the) complete uniform proudly and correctly at all > Scouting events," including "patrol and troop meetings, hikes, camps, and > rallies," when appearing "before a board of review or a court of honor," > when taking part "in Scout service projects in (the) community and in the > backcountry," and "during Scouting Anniversary Week in February." > It seems to me that the fact that complete uniforms are the norm at Philmont > base camp, and that the rangers wear uniform pants or shorts even in the > backcountry, is more a point in favor of full uniform usage than against it. My point was that the tens of thousands of Scouts and leaders that hike the Philmont backcountry each year don't do it in full uniforms. The lack of the full uniform doesn't seem to detract from their Scouting experience or their success on the trail. > No one is arguing that one should wear the complete uniform when it is not > appropriate to the activity--I would not want Scouts painting the Scout Hut > in uniform or hiking in Scout socks, for example--but for troop, patrol, and > PLC meetings, traveling to and from weekend campouts, and especially for > boards of review, courts of honor, color guard functions, and virtually any > activity before the public eye, the uniform is just as functional as jeans > and should be worn. Excuse me, doesn't the above statement violate page 567 of the Boy Scout Handbook you quoted earlier. Only traveling to and from weekend campouts? The book says to wear full uniform at "hikes, camps, and rallies", not just to and from. Are you picking and choosing when to wear the uniform? BTW, I don't disagree with you on that. I'm just pointing out that you contradicted one of your quotes. How far must we adhere to every word printed in the book? Does the book say "should" or "must"? Is it a guideline or a regulation? > I do not necessarily believe that units which only require half the uniform > are only providing half the program. Thank you for that statement. I fear there are those that do believe it. > You ask how many units are providing a "full outdoor program" (which > yours presumably does), in a tone which indicates that you feel others > ought to be doing so; yet you argue against a "full uniform program." My tone wasn't necessarily meant to sound accusatory. I believe a full outdoor program is more important than a full uniform program, my bias. That doesn't mean I am arguing "against" full uniforming. If a troop is fully uniformed, I applaud them. I think that is a fine accomplishment. I'm just saying that I'm much less motivated in that regard. I believe the shirt is the substance of the uniform, the rest is icing. That icing is very expensive for a growing boy. > Does this mean that you do not offer a quality program? Not necessarily; > but it does mean that your program is not all that it could be or should be. > No unit's program is perfect; there is always room for improvement, even in > the best of them. Full implementation of the uniform method is but one area > in which many units could improve. I plead guilty as charged, especially since I've written my confession and made it known to this list. Naturally there are areas in which we could improve with Uniforming definately among them. I see the value of aspiring to the other goals much more clearly than that of buying Scout pants and belts. > The uniform is defined by BSA. It is not within the authority of either the > PLC or the adult leadership to decide which parts of it to omit, any more > than it is within their authority to decide which rank advancements to omit > or which ideals to omit. Class B uniforms omit the Scout shirt in favor of a selected t-shirt. This is done by units and BSA Camps all over the country. > The uniform is a method of Scouting, equal in importance to each of the > other seven methods, and I challenge you to find any official policy > indicating otherwise. I still do not believe this, common sense tells me otherwise. I challenge you to find any official BSA policy indicating that all 8 methods are considered of equal value to one another. YIS, Cliff Golden Scoutmaster Troop 33; DeKalb, Illinois Three Fires Council BSA c60clg1@corn.cso.niu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~CGolden/troop33