From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Tue Oct 28 08:01:32 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA15875; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:01:32 -0500 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542787-18600>; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:54:47 -0500 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA16653; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:54:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1159; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:51:27 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7044; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 06:54:00 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 7040 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 06:53:22 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7039; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 06:53:20 -0500 Received: from mail1.infinet.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 28 Oct 97 06:53:18 CDT Received: from default (nwk-pm3-1-a021.infinet.com [208.137.27.21]) by mail1.infinet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA25924; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:51:49 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: shoar@infinet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971028091108.006c3680@infinet.com> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:11:08 +0000 Reply-To: Steve Hoar Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Steve Hoar Subject: Re: Uniforms X-To: jerry_williams@juno.com To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <19971027.210014.12126.1.jerry_williams@juno.com> Status: RO X-Status: At 09:00 PM 10/27/97 -0500, you wrote: > > To the best of my knowledge, Scouting is not a paramilitary >organization. If I'm right about this, any comparison to the military, >regardless of which branch, are totally misplaced and only used to make a >non-valid point. > > > I believe that our focus should be on what's inside the boy >rather than what's on him. A certain degree of uniformity (sorry for the >pun) is desirable and, yes perhaps, required. Requiring full dress >uniform for every event is, again IMHO, transforming the Boy Scouts into >a paramilitary organization which is far from where it should be. > My thoughts, for what they're worth. I always disagree with folks when they make the point that wearing a uniform in an organization makes it a 'paramilitary' organization. I took a look around this morning to see what kind of uniforms were in use around me. Well, lets see...here is the UPS driver and the mailman. Went to church and saw the priest and ministers in their 'uniforms'. Went to the hospital and saw the doctors and nurses in uniform. Later I drove my son to school and saw the band and even the school kids (catholic school) in uniform. Hmmm...nothing paramilitary here. Well, lets go shopping now. Here are the MacDonalds and Wendy's folks in uniform and look...here are the city workers and gas man in uniform. Well, by golly, either there are a whole lot of paramilitary folks around here or maybe the analogy of uniform equating to paramiltary is pure nonsense. The point is this. If the boys take pride in their unit, their accomplishments, and in scouting they will take pride in their uniform. I've seen some pretty poor kids come up with complete uniforms when the started achieving and taking pride in what they were doing. I used to be part of the 'let em wear jeans' crowd but I noticed that when the troop became the boys troop they began to set their own standards and began to show their pride. People will perform to the expectations you place upon them. But you gotta lead them to the expectations...you cannot impose them. Steve in Newark From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Wed Oct 29 02:16:56 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id CAA09024; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 02:16:56 -0500 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542961-26719>; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 02:09:39 -0500 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA04181; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 02:09:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2222; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 02:06:23 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2230; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:08:52 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 2224 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:08:08 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2223; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:08:07 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 29 Oct 97 01:08:04 CDT Received: from mx1.dynasty.net (mx1.dynasty.net) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IPCZV22TSG002K1Y@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for scouts-l@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:07:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from jessica ([208.205.50.97]) by mx1.Dynasty.Net (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA68; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:07:51 -0600 X-Sender: blkeagle@mail.dynasty.net MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971029070711.00c7b260@mail.dynasty.net> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:07:11 -0600 Reply-To: "settummanque, or blackeagle (Mike Walton)" Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "settummanque, or blackeagle (Mike Walton)" Subject: Re: merit badge sash X-To: Rhonda Vandergriff , scouts-l@tcu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Rhonda asked us all: >Our troop has a "policy" that the boys cannot wear the merit badge sash >until they have earned 6 badges. That's fine but this should be first off, a policy accepted by the youth (the Patrol Leaders' Council) of the Troop and second, explained to each new member of the Troop, either transferred or "newbie". Some here have already quoted the BSA's Insignia Guide and the part where it states (and it does) that Councils and units don't have any authority to "modify policy". However, there's two very important things that is left out of their answers that I want to bring up here. First, a local Council CAN and HAS allowed for localized modifications and localized patches and insignia in connection with national or local Council programming. It's explained in the Insignia Guide. Second, a Chartered Organization CAN and HAS provided for direction (as it is THEIR UNIT) as to what kind of neckerchiefs, what kind of unit insignia, and other uniforming policies (for instance, a urban unit can state in their bylaws that youth may wear bluejeans in lieu of the BSA standard pants and the older khaki shirts in lieu of the current khakitan shirts) *with approval of the local Council Scout Executive (or his or her representative)*. That's explained in that same Insignia Guide but not to the degree that I've explained it here. In both cases, the unit bares the burden of convincing the Council's Scout Executive or his/her representative of the need for keeping merit badge sashes at home until the 6th merit badge, if that's what your unit has decided upon. Personally, I don't see why but perhaps it was something that the *youth of the Troop* decided upon a while back and it has stuck. In that case, if you feel that this is wrong, then the *youth of the Troop* should be involved in changing it and they should be educated in the reasoning behind the merit badge sash: to place ALL MERIT BADGES EARNED upon it, IN THE ORDER THAT THE SCOUT WISHES. As far as the Scouts "teasing" younger Scouts, that should be STOPPED COLD, Rhonda. Don't let them tease them.....every Scout starts out earning that first Merit Badge and you have to earn one before you earn two or six or twenty-one. Show me where in the Insignia Guide where it says that a UNIT has no authority to modify WHEN a uniform (or uniform item, in this case) is to be worn. I can't find it. I've found several rules concerning INSIGNIA but but NOT UNIFORMS (Article X, sec 4, clause 4 does talk about ALTERATION, but we're not talking about altering BSA policy here....there is "no policy" in essence, since there is little guidance (handbooks only state that the sash should be worn "during formal occasions" and that word "should" doesn't mean "MUST", thereby giving units flexibility in deciding how and when the sash is to be worn). And before some of you point to clause 6, note that ..."may be approved by the *local council* executive board for council events or activities under conditions consistant with the Rules and Regulations of the BSA". Bottom line, Rhonda: Your unit's youth Patrol Leaders' Council should be making the "rule" on how the merit badge sash, just like the hat, the neckerchief, and other items should be worn by members of your Troop. If your PLC decide to keep the "don't wear it until you've earned six merit badge" rule, insure that EVERYONE in your Troop is aware of the rule, that new members are made aware of the rule and by all means, emphasize again that Scouting is NO PLACE for "teasing"...every Scout is a "brother to all other Scouts" and while a small amount of good-natured ribbing is good and healthy, "running someone down" for something that they may not be aware of is NOT and should be corrected quickly! Hope this helps! Settummanque! (c) 1997 Mike Walton ("no such thing as strong coffee,...") (502) 827-9201 (settummanque, the blackeagle) http://dynasty.net/users/blkeagle 241 Fairview Dr., Henderson, KY 42420-4339 blkeagle@dynasty.net kyblkeagle@aol.com or waltonm@hq.21taacom.army.mil ---- FORWARD in service to youth ---- From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Wed Oct 29 01:41:06 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id BAA06493; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:41:06 -0500 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542465-26722>; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:33:41 -0500 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA01434; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:33:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1284; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:30:31 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2065; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:32:55 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 2044 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:31:24 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2043; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:31:20 -0500 Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 29 Oct 97 00:31:11 CDT Received: by corn.cso.niu.edu id AA25318 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L ); Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:30:59 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:30:58 -0600 Reply-To: golden cliff Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: golden cliff Subject: Re: Uniform thoughts X-To: Russ Jones To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19971028074348.00b795c0@MAILHOST.TTUHSC.EDU> Status: RO X-Status: Russ, and Scoutss-L, I will try to make this my last post on uniforms, since many have declared it a dead horse. Actually it's a dead horse "again", since it is a perennial topic on Scouts-L. My apologies to Jon Eidson, our listowner. I will try to quote as little as possible (though it's very very hard). I also know this post is way too long. I'm really sorry about that and I apologize. > You > challenge me to find any official BSA policy stating that all eight methods > are of equal value, knowing full well that no such statement exists; but the > very fact that no such statement exists is the proof of the point I make. No, this is not true. Actually, I challenged you to find it so we could begin another thread. "Do people on this list believe all the methods of Scouting are of equal importance as the BSA states?" New thread = "METHODS--PRIORITY?" Without getting out of your chair, you can visit the official BSA web site at... "http://www.bsa.scouting.org/programs/boyscout.htm" Under the headline "AIMS AND METHODS OF THE SCOUTING PROGRAM", go down to the third line, it reads... "The methods by which the aims are achieved are listed below in random order to emphasize the equal importance of each." There you go, official and in writing (if you print it out). It goes on to list; Ideals, Patrols, Outdoor Programs, Advancement, Personal Growth, Leadership Development, and Uniform. Now you're wondering, wait! That's only seven methods! Aren't there supposed to be eight? Yes there are. Adult Association is not on the list. Either the BSA has a big suprise for us, or someone wasn't paying attention while they were writing the file. (Maybe this is meant to be the ultimate youth protection policy, no adult association.) I think the BSA needs to do a little reviewing of their home page content. > No, the eight methods are not easily separated, as you say. The point is, > they are not meant to be. All eight are intended to be used in a > coordinated, integrated fashion that results in a viable program to achieve > the aims of Scouting. Well said and absolutely true. I don't disagree at all (except that Scout pants are too expensive and unnecessary). Indulge me a little. Scouting is a little like cooking. The BSA has given us the ingredients (methods) to create a feast (program) for boys. Each troop adds an extra pinch here and there which gives each unit their own particular flavor. Some units offer better outdoor programs than others, some have amazing advancement tradition, some are sharply uniformed head to toe, others have such a boy led program other troops come by and take notes, and so on. Some ingredients will be a subtle hint of flavor, while others have an overwhelming flavor. As all great cooks, we don't agree on the exact recipe and probably never will, I can live with that. > You ask me to consider the hypothetical situation of two Scouts--one who > believes in the ideals of Scouting but does not own the uniform, and another > who owns the uniform but does not believe in the ideals--and ask if the two > boys are equal. You miss my point entirely on this. It's the methods I'm getting at here, they are not equal. Instilling within a Scout the ideals of the Oath and Law, IMHO is far more important than teaching boys to dress alike. OK, I know, the uniform method is more than dressing alike, but it's still not even remotely close to the importantance of teaching the ideals of Scouting. I definately believe ideals are far more important than uniforming, I do not believe those methods are of equal value. That was my point. > What the Boy Scout Handbook says about wearing the uniform can be taken > as either policy or guideline, I suppose, but in point of fact it is > probably both. I'm not sure how it can be both, but as long as you've given me the option, I'll take it as a guideline. Guidelines mean you should, but you don't have to. I have no problem with that. I do believe full uniforming is meant to be only a guidline, and we have been operating as such. > At one time a few years ago, BSA authorized what it called an "activity" > uniform, consisting of white socks, khaki shorts, and a knitted > polo-type shirt of a certain color depending on the type of unit, but > that was a short-lived offering that is no longer available. The activity uniform is still available in the most recent Scout catalog. > What we know as a "class B uniform" is not really a BSA uniform at > all. While the wearing of such is not specifically prohibited by the > BSA, neither is it sanctioned, and it is certainly not the uniform we > have been discussing. The fact that virtually every unit has its > "class B uniform" does not change the fact that neither the PLC nor the > adult leadership has the authority to decide what the official uniform > consists of. I have been discussing uniform method, which, to me, includes all forms of uniforming. The "class B uniform" is used by units and camps all over the country. If the uniform guidelines are only guidelines, then it's not a problem. However, if they are regulations, then the uniform police will be working double shifts. I believe the uniform method to be an important part of the Scouting program. I don't believe I have ever said that it wasn't. If I have given that impression somewhere in a post, then either the reader was misunderstanding my intention or it was a failure of clear expression on my part. I know this post has already gone on too long, but if you'll bear with me and read the following, you'll better understand my perspective on all of this. HERE'S WHAT I BELIEVE ABOUT UNIFORMING -------------------------------------- Uniforms. It helps a boy sell more popcorn and pancake breakfast tickets. Wearing it shows a boy's committment to Scouting. It identifies him as part of a worldwide movement with millions of other boys. It instills pride within him and unity among his troop. It reminds him of who he is and what's expected of him. It provides a platform from which to display his achievements in Scouting. Cubs and little brothers look up to him in his uniform as an example of what they might one day become. It instills pride in his parents and grandparents. His uniform tells his neighbors and people he doesn't even know that he's involved in something wholesome and positive and there's still hope for this nation's youth. He stands out in a crowd of people, more is expected of him because of it. It attracts all dirt and stains within 100 feet of him, giving his mother something to do with her spare time. Each one he outgrows tells him he is a little closer to manhood. Eventually one day he sees it not merely as a product of stitched cloth, but as a symbol of something that's become a part of him. To me that is the significance of the uniform method in Scouting. I believe those things to be very important indeed. If anyone feels I require further instruction on the purpose of the uniform method, they can contact me by personal e-mail. I also believe that a simple Scout shirt can accomplish all of the above. You can spend more money to own the full set of uniform parts national has for sale. For some, it is the only acceptable way to do it. For me, it's not about how much clothes we buy, it's about how the uniform method effects the boys. I believe in most situations a simple Scout shirt will do very nicely. It gets the job done for the boys in my troop. DAVID ----- I have made an effort to recruit some hispanic youth from my community. They are immigrants to this nation. Their parents do not speak english. One such Scout is named David. His father works two full time jobs earning minimum wage to support the family, such as it is. David's sister is still in Mexico. They are hoping to earn enough money someday to bring her to the United States. It's very expensive, many government officials need to be "tipped". David doesn't have a mother. His older cousin takes care of the house and family. We waived David's troop dues, bought him a handbook, Scout shirt, and the patches to go on it. We tried to give him a sleeping bag, but he refused it. He insists to only "borrow" it until he can buy his own, returning it at the end of each trip. He earned money for his Scout Account through our fundraisers to pay for activities. We gave him a bicycle, telling him it was grand prize for selling the most pancake breakfast tickets. His family is very proud and dislikes receiving any form of charity. David is a very healthy growing 11 year old who enjoys the adventure of being a Scout, especially an American one. Shirts can be purchased extra big and made to last a while, pants are more difficult to do this with. We have a uniform exchange, shirts don't remain there very long before being claimed. We have pants there too, but we never seem to have the right fit for anyone, so they lay unclaimed and unused. I know one of the intentions of the uniform is to make everyone equal, to erase the differences between the wealthy and the poor. It's therefore somewhat ironic that by requiring "full complete uniform" we clearly identify each Scout who can and can't afford to buy it. I fail to see a "major" benefit from the addition of the pants, etc. My troop's PLC seem to feel the shirt is enough and Scouts should be encouraged to wear it. We strongly encourage each Scout to wear his Scout shirt as his uniform. In theory, I absolutley agree a fully uniformed troop looks very sharp and the additional pride they feel from full uniforming can be substantial. I also recognize the difference between theory and reality. Although I might agree in theory, I have a troop of boys that must deal in reality. Reality isn't always what we want it to be. Just ask David. I try to use all the methods of Scouting as best I can to benefit the boys I work with. In some people's eyes we might be falling short in one or more area. That is not a major concern for me. My major concern is what the boys see through their eyes and how Scouting effects their lives. There are three aims in Scouting and I use eight methods to help instill within my Scouts a positive and significant Scouting experience. I have tremendous respect for Russ, and have enjoyed reading his posts. Never have I regarded any of this to be of a personal nature, only the lively discussion of a Scouting subject with an experienced and knowledgeable Scouter from Texas. We are probably too far apart on the uniforming issue to ever come together on it, but I know we both believe very deeply in what we do and the boys we serve. On that firm base we will always stand united. YIS, Cliff Golden Scoutmaster Troop 33; DeKalb, Illinois Three Fires Council BSA c60clg1@corn.cso.niu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~CGolden/troop33 From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Wed Oct 29 08:41:35 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA15287; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:41:35 -0500 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541401-26719>; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:34:32 -0500 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA26957; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:33:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9451; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:30:43 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3354; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:33:20 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 3350 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:32:56 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3349; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:32:55 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 29 Oct 97 07:32:53 CDT Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IPDDB5T2W0002P9E@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for SCOUTS-L@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:32:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.7) id IAA03466 for SCOUTS-L@TCU.EDU; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:32:43 -0500 (EST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <199710290832_MC2-257F-C6A2@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:32:29 -0500 Reply-To: Joseph Alessi Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Joseph Alessi Subject: Re: Uniform Thougts X-To: Scouts-L Mail List To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Cliff Golden wrote: >> Consider... Scout #1. Believes in Scouting Ideals but doesn't own a Full Uniform. Scout #2. Wears a Full Uniform but doesn't believe in Scouting Ideals. <= < How about Scout #3. Believes in Scouting Ideals and wears a full uniform? Or Scout #4. Believes in Scouting Ideals, wears the full uniform, takes part in a troop outdoors experience at least once a month, is an active member of his patrol working as part of a team, providing leadership as a den chief, while working on his own to earn merit badges and advance to Eagle, while giving service back to his community? Cliff, the idea is to use *all* the methods of scouting. There is no reason for a unit to give short shrift to one method over another. As was previously posted, no unit is perfect. But as leaders our job is to maximize the use of each method in the program to help achieve our aims. Your Scoutmaster Handbook doesn't say to pick some of these things - it says to use them all! By the way, much has been made of the "cost" of the uniform pants, I wish that the blue jeans that my two sons insist on wearing could be purchased for the same price! Others have said that the uniform isn't as durable as jeans. In my troop, wearing out uniform pants isn't the problem - = the boys grow out of them first. Having an active uniform bank (and making sure that everyone uses it) is the key to promoting full uniforming in the unit. I haven't heard anyone who supports full uniforming trying to make it the one defining factor of a "quality" unit, or anyone support a "full uniform 24 hours a day" policy, although those that favor only uniform shirts seem to think that this is the only alternative. YIS Joseph A. Alessi in Ozwin 2.14 JosephAlessi@Compuserve.com District Advancement Chair, Lafayette District ASM Troop 313 Advisor to the Treasurer, Unami Lodge I used to be an Owl From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Thu Oct 30 12:54:23 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id MAA14411; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:54:23 -0500 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541889-4091>; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:46:50 -0500 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA21772; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:46:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1466; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:43:28 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8690; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:43:30 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 8680 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:42:41 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8679; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:42:36 -0500 Approved-By: EIDSON@TCUBVM Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5394; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:13:18 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 29 Oct 97 16:13:13 CDT Received: from buffnet4.buffnet.net (buffnet4.buffnet.net) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IPDVH7R034002SFO@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for Scouts-L@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:13:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from buffnet9.buffnet.net (buffnet9.buffnet.net [205.246.19.19]) by buffnet4.buffnet.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA01714 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:13:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from eppp60.buffnet.net(205.246.19.167) by buffnet9.buffnet.net via smap (V2.0) id xma013473; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:12:58 -0500 MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 Message-ID: <199710292213.RAA01714@buffnet4.buffnet.net> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:10:16 -0500 Reply-To: Richard Seymour Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Richard Seymour Subject: Re: Uniform Thoughts X-To: Scouts-L Youth Group List To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Russ writes to Cliff: > You challenge me to find any official BSA policy stating that all eight methods are of equal value, knowing full well that no such statement exists; but the very fact that no such statement exists is the proof of the point I make. < While Russ and Cliff may be correct in their agreement that there is no longer an official BSA policy stating that all eight methods are of equal importance, it is interesting to note that this has not always been the case. The Sixth Edition (1972) of the Scoutmaster's Handbook stated that the methods "are *not* listed in order of importance -- because they are *equally important* [the emphasis was in the original]." It should be noted, however, that at this time the uniform was not considered important enough to be one of the seven Methods of Scouting, and was relegated to the list of "Other Program Elements": The Methods of Scouting: 1) Scouting Ideals 2) Patrol 3) Advancement 4) Adult Male Association 5) Outdoor Program 6) Leadership Development 7) Personal Growth Other Program Elements: "We have considered those parts of Scouting that are so essential to the success of the program that we call them methods. There are, of course, other features and elements -- some unique to Scouting, some not. Each contributes its own flavor to the total program. We note some of these other program elements here, in no special order." The Scout Uniform The Good Turn Adventure Competition Activities Among Troops The uniform was reinstated as a Method of Scouting in the Seventh Edition (1981) of the Scoutmaster's Handbook. The statement about the equal value of these methods was retained, but with the emphasis removed. In the Eighth Edition (1990), the statement was dropped altogether. I will leave it to Russ and Cliff to debate the deeper meaning of this chain of BSA editorial decisions! The Aims and Methods of Scouting have changed with every Scoutmaster's Handbook except for the Fifth Edition (1959). For a more detailed outline of these changes, you can pick up a link to my rough draft at http://www.scouter.com/sl.htm?cid=401 I plan to rework it, and would be interested in any comments you might have about the Aims and Methods of the very early editions of the Scoutmaster's Handbook, as well as B-P's lists. Yours in Scouting, Rick Seymour ricky@buffnet.net From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Fri Oct 31 09:02:21 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA19458; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:02:21 -0500 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <541683-7508>; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:53:49 -0500 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA13451; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:53:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6286; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:50:18 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2554; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:51:59 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 1651 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:51:08 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1650; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 02:21:51 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 31 Oct 97 02:20:03 CDT Received: from mx1.dynasty.net (mx1.dynasty.net) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IPFUYT3C28002Z5W@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for scouts-l@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 02:19:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from jessica ([208.205.50.94]) by mx1.Dynasty.Net (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA157; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 02:19:40 -0600 X-Sender: blkeagle@mail.dynasty.net MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971031081901.00d56b9c@mail.dynasty.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 02:19:01 -0600 Reply-To: "settummanque, or blackeagle (Mike Walton)" Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "settummanque, or blackeagle (Mike Walton)" Subject: Re: merit badge sash X-To: rfl@offpro.net, scouts-l@tcu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Rich Locke wrote: >I have no desire to engage in public humilition and bashing via Scouts-L >but when you set yourself up as some kind of quasi-official Scout icon, >you have a particular obligation to be accurate and objective with your >information. I believe that instead you have mixed some ascertainable >fact with a good dose of opinion and agenda. >Don't take this too personally but I have a problem with self styled >experts and purveyors of Scouting Apocrypha. What I state here and elsewhere, Rich, is a combination of what the BSA states officially to their local Councils and to their professional cadre, what I view as common Scouter sense (and I state so when I do this) and what has been viewed by the majority of BSA local Councils as "what we do". You may have disagreements with what I state on Scouts-L or in other forums, but in checking and verifying, many Scouters have found that what I've wrote is pretty much "on the money" and in line with what their local Council view as "interpreting the BSA's policy". I don't take anything here on this list personally, and I don't set myself up as the "ultimate authority on Scouting".....I'm in this game to learn more about the program just like everyone else....my main role here as I've stated from the outset is to provide *a* (not neccessarily *the*) response that if we had a senior professional from the BSA here, would state. In particular, dealing with the merit badge sash issue: I've stated on Scouts-L: >> First, a local Council CAN and HAS allowed for localized modifications >>and localized patches and insignia in connection with national or local >>Council programming. It's explained in the Insignia Guide. >.... >Is it clear to you that there is a semantic and legal difference >between "CAN and HAS" and "may and should"? Clause 11, which I believe >is the regulation which allows local councils (with advance approvalof >the Corporation) to produce their own CSP, for instance appears to be >limited in scope to special badges and insignia. I don't get the sense >that any local council/district/unit is authorized to make "localized >modifications" to the uniform. A local Council can and has (and I have examples of these if you care to view them:) *Create special insignia for Council activities and events (that's a given) *Create special insignia for Council participation in National events and activities (examples here include Order of the Arrow Lodge flaps, special CSPs, and special neckerchiefs and slides which support Council contingents to National or World Jamborees, National Order of the Arrow conferences, National Exploring conferences, and other national events.) *Create special position patches (the BSA adopted the Philly Council's Exploring Executive and Exploring Director patches and made it "national"; the BSA also allowed local Councils to produce "Exploring Commissioner" patches instead of the lapel pin which IDed Exploring Service Team members). *Create and allow for wear "square knots" for local Council service in various areas (the Paisono Award, the Silver Scouter Award and several other local Council awards have knot emblems which local Councils have sought and received permission to have Scouters to wear on the field uniforms) *Authorized commissioners to wear special neckerchiefs which serve to "point them out". *Create special recruiter patches to replace the generic "recruiter strips" that the Supply Division creates each year for Scouts and Scouters to wear. *Authorized special shoulder strands (like the green and red cords used for color guards in some Councils) to be worn along with the Musician patch. Local Councils have the authority to allow units to: *wear the older uniform shirts with bluejeans *wear the older hats with the current BSA uniforms *wear or not to wear the long sleeved shirt with shorts *wear or not to wear special hatgear with BSA uniforms The authority is vested in the Council Scout Executive, whom as lead adminstrator of the BSA's program in that territory, is responsible for responding to the BSA's National Executive Board or their representative dealing with insignia and uniforming matters with regard to uniforming within their territory. This, Rich, is why the BSA's Rules and Regulations are written so vaguely instead of coming right out and saying that "No local Council can make any patch, adopt any uniforming options, or allow or not allow uniforming options within their Council". Imagine, not being able to let your Scouts and Scouters to wear short sleeved shirts and pants in southern Texas, in Panama, in South America or in Saudi Arabia. The BSA's Rules and Regulations are written to allow the largest amount of *reasonable lattitude* with regard to how local Councils operate and manage the BSA's programs in their local territories. I continued in that posting and stated: >> Second, a Chartered Organization CAN and HAS provided for direction >>(as it is THEIR UNIT) as to what kind of neckerchiefs, what kind of unit >>insignia, and other uniforming policies (for instance, a urban unit can >>state in their bylaws that youth may wear bluejeans in lieu of the BSA >>standard pants and the older khaki shirts in lieu of the current khakitan >>shirts) *with approval of the local Council Scout Executive (or his or her >> representative)*. That's explained in that same Insignia Guide but not >>to the degree that I've explained it here. >The reason the two things you mention are left out of the answers of >"some here" (slap acknowledged), is probably because they appear >nowhere in the rules and regulations. This "local modification" is addressed in several professional publications, including the BSA's Adminstration of Scouting guidebook that all professionals should have lying around in their offices. As an Exploring leader, you are already aware that the Exploring Leader Manual and other publications allow for a DDI, a Distinctive Dress Identity, which is jointly agreed upon by the membership of the Post or Ship and with consent from the Chartered Organization and the Scout Executive or his or her representative (usually the senior Exploring executive or another senior executive). > Of course that again is an opinion and just my guess. I don't assume that >just because I can choose a troop neckerchief, I can also choose my own >official uniform. Rich, units have been doing this for *years*. There are some units that wear a special hat, wear a special tee-shirt, wear a special patch in lieu of the unit numbers....the chartered partner organization can approve a specific uniform if the local Council is involved and can agree that this "local modification" retains the spirit of Scouting and the ideals and yet allow for that unit to develop an localized identity. The Madison Scouts is one such example. Scout members of that marching band unit wear kilts with their Scouts shirts, and have the Scout Executive's blessing on this "uniform option". Another example is what eventually developed into the "Kente cloth" for many African-American Church chartered units in the Northeast and the South. There are many units that choose to wear the red berets or the older blue or khaki "boonie hat" that previously only female Scouters wore as hatgear. The Jamboree uniforms over the years, the NOAC uniforms over the years and the Exploring Conference uniforms all were varations on the main theme of the BSA field uniform. There's a lot of variations with regard to Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting and Exploring units out there that all center around "trying to get our Scouts in the common uniform but we can't because of societial or financial reasons....and we're doing the best we can with whatever we've got". The program's not going to die if in the pursuit of getting everyone in a common uniform, that the unit decides that we're going to wear green jackets instead of the red ones! >In my opinion, you should take great care when you engage in >"explaining" the meaning and intent of published policies, regulations, >official statements etc. of the BSA or any other corporation. On whose >authority do you presume to provide "explanations"? My explanation is >that nowhere in the Insignia Guide does it state that anyone other than >the National Executive Board can give approval for a modification of the >uniform, policies, regulations..... Note that Clause 2 defines the >official uniforms of the BSA so, I suppose, if you can find a "handbook, >catalog or other official publication" of the BSA which "illustrates and >correctly describes" a uniform consisting of blue jeans and the "older >khaki shirt", you can and may stick it right there in your unit >by-laws. I think my explanation carries as much weight as your >explanation. Yeah, I guess so. I don't have any "authority", Rich, at all. What I post on Scouts-L or any other forum is free for those to use or not to use. I try to give a reasoned answer, with the resources I have here and the resources to which I personally have access to. I stand behind what I post, even if others disagree with me. And its the Rules and Regulations of the BSA, not the Insignia Guide, Rich, that determines what rights local Councils have with regard to uniforming and insignia issues, and as I've explained above, I've pointed to three separate places whereby National has given (or delegated) authority to local Councils to develop localized versions of National programming or events or options. For instance, Tiger Cubs may wear either the Cub Scout pants or bluejeans with the Tiger Cub teeshirt. Local Councils may provide (and I've got two examples here) special Tiger Cub Graduation patches if they choose not to use the National versions. Boy Scouts and units may use the special "bead advancement program" to track individual advancement within their units. Councils can create special plaques or insignia (like special CSPs) for those contributors that donate a large amount of money to the local Council. I can go on and on with examples on how local Councils, WITH NATIONAL APPROVAL AND PERMISSION, can provide uniforming and insignia options for their youth in their territories. >I note with interest that you affix a copyright symbol to your >postings. That's interesting. Speaks volumes. I guess it's OK for you >to protect your intellectual property but the good and valuable >trademarks and copyrights of the Boy Scouts of America can be modified >at will? Just like with my permission, Rich, a person can and has modified what I've wrote for their webpage or site, for a local Council or unit newsletter, or for resending to their friends....the National Council, Boy Scouts of America has given some authority for local Councils to modify and localize what the Boy Scouts of America produced as far as national programming or programming emphasis...WITH THEIR PERMISSION. Not "if we wanna do it, we can do it..." Even Explorer Posts and Ships have to have their uniforming options and DDI (Distinctive Dress Identity) approved by their local Council before they can wear it. The local Council usually faxes the option or patch design or whatever to the National Uniform and Insignia Director for his concurrance, and sometimes, those things are disapproved at the National level, particularily when it comes to national advancement insignia. But most of the time, because the BSA has a great deal of confidence in its 229 local Council Scout Executives, the National Office will pretty well go along with whatever the local Council wants to do. And the local Council will pretty well go along with what most of its units are doing, as long as the "good name and good will of the Corporation" is not diminished by this option or change or modification. It's like me...you're welcome to use my posting(s) as long as you're not making any money from it and as long as the spirit of the posting isn't diminished by your changes or modifications. >Hey folks, this is the Internet. You are responsible for verifying and >validating the information you get here. This forum is a terrific >source of ideas and opinions. It's amusing and diverting. It's also >anonymous and unsecure. And, I could be wrong. I encourage those that have concerns with how *their local Council* does things to rely on their local Council and not the list. That's what makes the BSA work in *your neck of the woods* and what makes it sometimes confusing and irratating, Rich. I'm glad you're enjoying the comments and the banter here on Scouts-L!! And you could be wrong...I'm wrong sometimes, so that's a possibility! *laughter* If you're concerned about whom I am and how I come to this amount of information that I share, I invite you to visit my website and find out. Settummanque! (c) 1997 Mike Walton ("no such thing as strong coffee,...") (502) 827-9201 (settummanque, the blackeagle) http://dynasty.net/users/blkeagle 241 Fairview Dr., Henderson, KY 42420-4339 blkeagle@dynasty.net kyblkeagle@aol.com or waltonm@hq.21taacom.army.mil ---- FORWARD in service to youth ----