From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Tue Oct 28 05:27:16 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id FAA29352; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:27:16 -0500 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542139-18600>; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:19:45 -0500 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id EAA04317; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 04:53:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6656; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 04:50:57 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5335; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:40:04 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 5327 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:37:46 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5326; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:37:43 -0500 Received: from mail.primary.net by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Mon, 27 Oct 97 18:37:39 CDT Received: from MULDER (pn1-ppp-03.primary.net [205.242.191.3]) by mail.primary.net (8.8.7/8.8.7/+primary) with SMTP id SAA24607; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:37:28 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <19971027160937.7837.qmail@LuciaDiLammermoor.acsu.buffalo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <345550A1.7C4D@ninenet.com> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:40:33 -0800 Reply-To: "Charles E. Dombek" Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "Charles E. Dombek" Subject: Re: Webelos to Boy Scout (fwd) X-To: Don Izard To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Don Izard wrote: > > I agree with Dan on a major level! In the past, when I talked > with some dissatisfied parents, they talked about HOW disorganized > the meetings were, and that the scout was advancing too slow etc. > > They talked about HOW it was in the cub pack, and that in the > first year in Cubs, how the cub got Bob Cat, and Wolf and arrow > points and belt loops etc. Since joining scouts he has ONLY > earned his Tenderfoot, and a couple merit badges. > > Maybe this is the real reason that BSA tried to urge troops to > focus on first class in one year? > > Also, it is important for the parents to understand the role and > importance of the Youth leadership of the troop. Once they > understand, and appreciate the leadership development, they > still may not like the level of apparent disorganization, but > they may understand, and MAY even want to help to try to get it better > "organized". > > scouter don > > Forwarded message: > > From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Mon Oct 27 10:10:15 1997 > > map and compass--for example. Making the Boy Scout troop's system > > known to them at the start helps to avoid such misundersandings. > > > > Yours in the spirit of Scouting, > > > > Dan O'Canna Lexington, Kentucky > > mailto:ocanna@alpha.caer.uky.edu > > Just to add my nickel as a Webelos Den Leader and Assistant Scoutmaster... The purpose of the Webelos program is to get the boys ready to cross over from Cubs to Boy Scouts. This is why Webelos have activity badges that require an increased amount of work before recognition as well as the limitation on who can sign off the scout for completed requirements. One of the biggest difficulties I have had is with the later point. For about half of my boys I have been forced to "modify" this to say that if their parent has signed it off they need to "present" their accomplishment (e.g. leather projects) to the rest of the den before I sign off. In this way I feel that they are required to go a little bit further than when Akela (usually mom or dad)could sign them off at will. I also have the den elect their denner and assistant denner to get them used to the concept of picking their own leaders. As we get closer to March, they'll also be asked to plan a meeting on their own. I've always believed that the majority of lost Cub Scouts in Boy Scouts is a direct result of the Webelos program missing the boat in bridging the difference in the programs. Chuck Dombek Webelos Den Leader Pack 572 Assistant Scoutmaster Troop 809 New Horizons District Greater St. Louis Area Council _________________________________________________________________________ An Arrow of Light ('66) and First Class ('68) Now Raising Three Eagles! _________________________________________________________________________ From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Tue Oct 28 05:04:09 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id FAA28096; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:04:09 -0500 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542945-18605>; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 04:53:22 -0500 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id EAA03004; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 04:47:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5990; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 04:44:44 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3949; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:23:49 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 3945 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:22:59 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3944; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:22:58 -0500 Received: from UMSLVMA.UMSL.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Mon, 27 Oct 97 10:22:52 CDT Received: from [134.124.1.75] by UMSLVMA.UMSL.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Mon, 27 Oct 97 10:24:44 CST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:24:29 -0500 Reply-To: "William N. Dilla" Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "William N. Dilla" Subject: Webelos to Boy Scouts To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: This follows on Kim's, Charlie's, and Dan's comments about easing the Webelos to Scout transition. Getting both the boys and the parents familiar with the program is important. Having the boys do a couple of campouts on their own, then along with the Boy Scout troop is a great selling tool. I'd caution against too much of a good thing, however. My 1st son's Web. den was camping out as often as the Boy Scout troop, and I think we may have burnt out a few kids and parents in the process. Remember that while you want to sell the Webs. on Boy Scouts, they still need to concentrate on their Cub Scout program. A recent experience showed me the importance of communication to parents. If you're a leader with one boy in Cubs and the other in Scouts, don't assume that the Cub parents will learn everything about Boy Scouts by osmosis from you. I realized it this yr. when our other Web. den leader handed me a schedule in Sept. that: 1) was missing the District 2nd yr. Webelos Camporee with the Scouts and 2) had the boys still in Cub Scouts up till the end of May! Fortunately, we were able to rectify the situation, and the Webs. attended the Camporee with the Boy Scouts and had a great time. The parents now also know that their sons WILL be Boy Scouts, come May. BUT, we are still going to have a Troop meeting in Nov. where we invite the boys in, then take the parents off to a separate room where we explain dates and times of meetings, how often outings occur, the advancement system, how the troop is run, etc., etc. At the same meeting, we are going to give parents advance notice of key dates, like the boys' 1st outing as Scouts, their 1st Court of Honor, summer camp, and so forth. It was bad enough that last yr. was a bad recruiting year for us, because of being in the midst of a leadership change. But what was just as bad was that the few new Scouts who did join got off to a slow start, because key Scouting dates were not in their parents' calendars. So, we're learning already that if you want the Cubs to continue as Boy Scouts, both boys and parents need to know well in advance what to expect. Bill Dilla Scoutmaster, Troop 310 Treasurer, Webelos Den Leader, Pack 310 New Horizons District--Greater St. Louis Area Council Ballwin, MO From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Tue Oct 28 14:15:31 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from server1.capaccess.org (server1.CapAccess.org [207.91.115.5]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id OAA00475; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:15:31 -0500 Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by server1.capaccess.org (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with ESMTP id OAA17206; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:06:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <543149-18600>; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:04:24 -0500 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA15516; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:02:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8320; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:59:51 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8670; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:02:28 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 8660 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:01:40 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8659; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:01:39 -0500 Received: from ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 28 Oct 97 13:01:34 CDT Received: from conversion.ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu by ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu (PMDF V5.0-6 #15752) id <01IPCCN9TTFK8WWON6@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu> for scouts-l@tcubvm.is.tcu.edu; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:02:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from a1.cats.ohiou.edu by ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu (PMDF V5.0-6 #15752) id <01IPCCN7CTA88WW45D@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu> for scouts-l@tcubvm.is.tcu.edu; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:02:38 -0500 (EST) Alternate-recipient: prohibited MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Posting-date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:02:00 -0500 (EST) Importance: normal Priority: normal Sensitivity: Company-Confidential UA-content-id: A6848ZXBYK25OD A1-type: MAIL Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:42:50 -0500 Reply-To: "Lisa Conatser (614) 593-1004" Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "Lisa Conatser (614) 593-1004" Subject: Webelos to scouts - continued To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: It is VERY important that the parents of Webelos take an ACTIVE role in helping their son select a troop to call home. If three of my seven Webelos are still in Boy Scouts next year at this time I will be very surprised. I have scheduled visits at all four area troops. My older son is currently in Troop X, so all Web. parents think my younger son will join Troop X therefore THEIR sons will join Troop X. Yes, that was the first troop we visited and we have gone to a camporee with them BUT - the Webelos absolutely did NOT interact with these scouts. They sat off by themselves at the troop meeting and did NOTHING with the troop at the camporee. If the parents had gone to the troop visit and saw the lack of interaction between the scouts and Webelos, would they still think it was the best place for their sons? They also did not see the scouts of a different troop openly encouraging the Webelos to take part in their activities and games and having a good time together. Since I have voiced my concerns in writing (ie - please attend the troop visits with your son) I will not be very pleased to hear some of these folks complaining when their son quits because he doesn't like the - kids, activities, adults, meeting time, place, etc. Probably the biggest indicator that the parent holds a big responsibility in troop "match" is the Arrow of Light requirement for the parent and boy to attend a meeting of the troop of his choice and talk to the Scoutmaster about his desire to join. Every troop is different, just like each boy and family is different. Each family must find the right "fit" between scout and troop for their son for a boy to remain in scouting. From Scouts-L@tcu.edu Wed Oct 29 11:37:11 1997 Return-Path: Scouts-L@tcu.edu Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.84]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id LAA07279; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:37:11 -0500 Received: from lightpost by outbound.Princeton.EDU with SMTP id <542062-26721>; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:28:46 -0500 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU (pucc.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.99]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU (8.8.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA13662; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:28:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin MAILER@TCUBVM) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4285; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:25:09 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4174; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:27:41 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 4164 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:26:50 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4163; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:26:41 -0500 Received: from mmac2.jccbi.gov by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 29 Oct 97 10:26:36 CDT Received: from mmacmail.jccbi.gov by mmac2.jccbi.gov (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA27155; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:25:11 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mmacmail.jccbi.gov (SMTPLINK V2.11 PreRelease 4) id AA878149481; Wed, 29 Oct 97 10:06:21 CDT Encoding: 85 Text Message-ID: <9709298781.AA878149481@mmacmail.jccbi.gov> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:06:21 CDT Reply-To: Barry C Runnels Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Barry C Runnels Subject: Webelos to Boy Scouts To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: >Preparation for Boy Scouts is only number 9. As a parent I would be upset >if an 18 month program would be devoted for the benefit of what comes >later. After five years of this stuff, only number nine says it, but most of the other points are intended to get the Webelos ready for Scouts. >A bridge is normally build from two sides. Even when in some cases >cub scout leaders are guilty of such a loss, boy scout leaders not taking >responsibility but blaming cub scouts will not help us get the problem >solved. Our Pack learned real fast, don't count on the Troops to help in recruiting Webelos. Yes it is a big part of their job but so is running a Troop and a lot Troops have big problems there. If you want the job done right, do it yourself. I do think a major objective of the Webelos program is get them ready for Troops. If it wasn't meant to be that way, it should be because it not only help our Webelos to Scouts Program, it helped our whole Pack program. The problem is most leaders think you have to treat Webelos like a small Troop to get them ready for Boys Scouts. We don't really do that. Yes, some of our leaders have patrols and we do camp but that's not really it. The whole idea of a Boy Scouts is teaching a boy to be responsible, build confidence, teach leadership. OK there is a lot more but what I am saying is treat your Webelos to act their age. We ask our Webelos to lead all Pack ceremonies. They come to meeting 30 minutes early and teach the Color Guard Den how to carry the flags, where to stand, what each command means. We have two second year Webs to stand up front and lead with two first year Webs standing next to them in training. You can't imagine how much joy I get watching my Webelos teach Tigers, Wolves or Bears how to be in the color guard. Then to start the meeting on time with signs up, would you please stand for our Flag Ceremony, etc. The only part where adults get invovled is giving the prayer. Our Pack has the Webelos perform at least one skit every meeting. Usually two, I have 16 Webelos, so I try to do three. At first I give them the skits to practice. As they get more confident, I give them a choice of three, then I just give them a book. They usually take 15 minute to practice. They are very good. You should have seen our campfire this year. I used an idea I got from Scout L. I divided my guys into three groups. Two groups had to do two skits plus two more the SM gave them ten minutes before the start of the campfire. The third group had to plan a fire and perform the ceremony. I gave the fire guys 50 feet of wire, a battery, matches and a rocket motor ignitor. Showed them how that stuff worked then sent them off to plan a ceremony. We have some Indian ceremonial stuff, head dresses, bells and other neat stuff. They could choose what they want to use if any of it. With just a little help from my assistant who is a perfectionist and can't stand to not get involved, My Webelos Den 67 had a better flag and fire starting ceremony than most District campfires. And the skits?, well in our Pack, good skits are a given. There is a lot more to a good Pack/Webelos program, but my point you should do more than camping and learning Scout skills to get Webelos ready for a Troop. In our Pack, only the Webelos are asked to wear full uniforms yet most all our Scout are in full uniform. We have a 100% crossover of Bears to Webelos and a 100% crossover of Webelos into Scouts. Our Tigers, wolves and bears try to perform up to a Webelos standard. Our whole Pack is better because of the Webelos program. Our Webelos are very confident, mature and excited about Troops. This is my last year in Cubs so I spend a lot time explaining to our new CM why our Webelos program is so important to the whole pack. He didn't see it they way it used to be. I hope he is listening. These examples are a very small part of our whole Webelos program but they give you and idea of the program philosophy. Is this hard work for leaders?. I think I spend less time at it than most. How much work can it be to give a few boys some skits and tell them they have to perform it this evening. How hard is to gather the group after a meeting and say "once again guys, your Flag ceremony was great, your skits where performed wonderfully as usual, you guys are the best!". I loose my 16 guys in a few months to a different Troop, things never seem to go the way we plan, but their new SM is very excited to get them. I don't think he is good enough for them but he will learn. Seems I am just now learning how to lead from the heart. I love this Scouting Stuff. Barry Runnels "Mighty" Pack 339 Webelos Den 67 "Big Dogs" Edmond OK