From dloomis@nh.ultranet.com Sun Mar 29 19:51:43 1998 Return-Path: dloomis@nh.ultranet.com Received: from gilgamesh.nh.ultra.net (gilgamesh.nh.ultra.net [205.162.79.25]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id TAA24017 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 19:51:43 -0500 Received: from xenic (d26.dial-2.prt.nh.ultra.net [207.41.146.58]) by gilgamesh.nh.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult.n14767) with SMTP id TAA02386 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 19:43:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <351EEACE.800@nh.ultranet.com> Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 19:43:58 -0500 From: Dave Loomis Reply-To: dloomis.nospam@nh.ultranet.com Organization: S. O. A. R. Computer Consultants X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-GZone (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael F. Bowman" Subject: Re: Council Exec Uniform References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: A Michael F. Bowman wrote: > > Dave, > > I've only seen the full three piece uniform worn a very few times and it > was awesome. What a treasure to see one this long after they were > retired. As much as they cost it is little wonder that many Scout > Executives only had one and many times this was their only dress attire > period. I guess there's a certain romance to those old uniforms that > still holds me. :-)) But then again I was a historian for a bit before > moving on to other things. > Mike, I was surprised and pleased to se this man, who had been a Scoutmaster, in the full older uniform. I've seen older annual pictures of my council's executive staff, when I came back here in the early 80's. We used to take these pictures each year as a way of keeping track of comings and goings, I guess, and perhaps as a stating of Scouting during that time. From these pictures, I surmise that the three piece uniform lasted well into the 60's. Several of my old district's scouters had the two piece woolen/wool twill uniform they wore to special events, because I have a picture of my father receiving his Silver Beaver in a business suit, while others were in that uniform. I know that my dad didn't have much of a scouting uniform, although he was our District Commissioner during much of the 40's. I know I wore a heavy cotton twill uniform, with metal removable buttons, much like those worn on a military uniform, down to the split ring holding the shank to the cloth, instead of stitching. A year or so later I wore the light weight cotton short sleeve uniform to the Jamboree, a uniform that was new to me at the time. I later wore this style uniform to scout camp for several years. I don't have any idea how much the woolen uniform acoutrements cost as I never owned one, but I'd be surprised it either shirt or trousers cost more than $5.00, back when $1.00 was a fair wage for an hour's work for a man. I doubt that my father, an accountant, made much more than $10,00 annually, since our life style did an abrupt dip on his death, when my mother started teaching at $1,800 per year. I'd expect that a full three piece uniform probably ran around $25, especially if matching cloth were used. This becomes more important, as I later discovered in the Army, if one part is cleaned more than the others, and fades more. We used to insure that our cotton AND wool uniforms went to the cleaners as matched sets, even if one part didn't need cleaning, to avoid this problem. I rarely saw any of our non-unit folks in the wool uniforms, since the council folk wore cottonat camp, and the district folk wore hunting wear at camporees. This may go to the maintenace cost of these uniforms. Of course I didn't oay much attention to what these folks wore then, as I was more concerned with my own Scouting experience. Although I've never been a historian, I have a great deal of respect for our history, especially as it can tell us what did or did NOT work during a particular timeframe. If we are skilled enough to determine the differences in lifestyles between then and now, perhaps we can make valid extrapolations between then and now, to predict the workability of a similar tactic here and now. On another topic entirely - copyrights - I believe we have two copyright issues on scouting lists and publications, author's work and editor's work. I believe that anything a person writes down is vested with an implied copyright, although the person may not go to the trouble of registering the specific work with any official body. Thus my E-Mail to you, and your E-Mail to me are copyright, although I have no intention of doing anything more about that now or later from my end. It is not necessary to attach the "circled 'C'", nor the "Copyright date" notation to preserve this ownership, although they may keep others more honest, by placing them on notice of ownership. Editors who use material from other sources are granted a similar copyright on the editing and arrangement - look and feel - of the finished work, with the above provisions, although they must still credit the original sources that they used. Scouting groups are frequently guilty of violating these guidelines in the interest of furthering local scouting, so PowWow guides, and other local publications frequently borrow from material from other councils and districts, frequently without citing sources. I think most scouters expect this use of their work, feeling that as long as it betters Scouting it is OK, or else they would take more steps to protect their work. When I have two contributors to a scouting forum for which I do library work, producing a newsletter for Scouting, the one scrupulously citing every source, and the other occasionally offering outright copies of the first's work, with no attribution, I tend to clamp down on the second's work, and decline to release it. I also make my interpretation of copyright as clear as possible to the second contributor. I can't always be sure, occasionally folks slide one by me, that I don't catch, and sometimes it comes back to bite me. So far I have been very lucky, in that it hasn't happened very often, but I do make mistakes of omission. This was not to any particular point or post, but it make clear up a couple of E-Mails you've received recently. Yours in Scouting Dave To reply, remove the word, "nospam" from my return address. ************************************************************************* * Dave Loomis * * * 164 Tuttle Lane * (603) 431 5342 * * Greenland, NH 03840 * dloomis@nh.ultranet.com * ************************************************************************* * Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam * * possit materiari? * ************************************************************************* From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Tue Apr 14 11:17:59 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id LAA23941; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:17:59 -0400 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA18067; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:09:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6526; Tue, 14 Apr 98 10:09:37 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7801; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:09:40 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 7793 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:08:43 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7792; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:08:40 -0500 Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 14 Apr 98 10:08:27 CDT Received: from 207.217.147.27 (pool027-max1.newbury-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [207.217.147.27]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA24366; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:07:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199804132243020240.2FA43CB0@mail.scouter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <35337C4A.2B10@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:10:02 -0700 Reply-To: Lawrence Tuck Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Lawrence Tuck Subject: Re: Copyright Advice Needed X-To: Rick Seymour To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Rick Seymour wrote: > > Much of this material was first copyrighted in the 1930s, making the > copyright more than 50 years old, which I seem to remember as a > magic number in copyright law. > > I would be willing to put Hillcourt's material on a web site if someone > could figure out the copyright on old Scoutmaster Handbooks. When Hillcourt's book was written, copyright was for 28 years, and could be renewed once. Since then, the law has changed, and a standard copyright is for the life of the author, plus 50 years. The exception is "works for hire"--for example, if Hillcourt wrote his handbooks for BSA as an employee of BSA, and the copyright is registered in the name of BSA rather than Hillcourt himself. In this case, under the current law copyright term is 75 years from date of first publication. The new law is retroactive to works published before 1976 IF an renewal was applied for before the original copyright expired. Old handbooks I have are Copyright Boy Scouts of America and I imagine BSA has renewed its copyrights. Unless there's a copyright lawyer around who can offer better advice, I'd suggest writing to BSA, probably the publications division, and ask for permission to post the material to the Web for historical and educational purposes. The worst that can happen is they might say no. I wonder how Lew Orans, who has provided us with so much inspirational material on his Pine Treet Web, handles this issue. Larry Tuck ASM Troop 761 Thousand Oaks, CA