From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Wed Apr 29 23:14:24 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id XAA28862 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:14:24 -0400 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA02730 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 07:33:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8302; Thu, 30 Apr 98 07:33:35 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1959; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 07:33:28 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 9863 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 07:32:41 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9862; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:04:15 -0500 Received: from [205.177.49.200] by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 29 Apr 98 21:04:09 CDT Received: by tcs.wap.org (Stalker Internet Mail Server 1.6) with FILE id S.0000072850 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 22:03:51 -0400 Message-ID: <1998Apr29.220420.49@tcs.wap.org> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 22:04:33 EST Reply-To: Jay Thal Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Jay Thal Organization: Washington Apple Pi, Ltd. user group in Washington, D.C. Subject: Dilemmas To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Musing..... (not 3G) What do we lose by being too quickly judgmental? Tuesday I was watching CNN, and they have a program called *Talkback*. The issue at hand was a young woman; high school student, with a 3.8 GPA; abundant community service; and an unwed mother, being excluded from her school*s chapter of the National Honor Society (NHS). She is, or so we are told, a bad moral role model. The NHS national policy does not call for excluding youth for their dalliances. This was a local policy, established in 1952. It was as if they superficially read the message of Hawthorne. Most of the students in the audience (including NHS members) favored her being admitted to the NHS. Were they practicing revisionist morality? Others said that morality is immutable, parochial policies should not be ignored or changed. The problem is that pregnancy and motherhood is visible. Others, the father included, could be as promiscuous as the want as long as no one asks, and they do not tell. And so I turned from the TV to our merry band of woods(wo)men, and what they had to say for the day. Two messages popped out at me as I read: David Yanke*s response to Mike Walton, Re: Moral Dilemma; and, G. John Marmet*s Re:U.S.: What are we teaching our kids? Day to day we are dealing with difficult questions. But it is not a theocratic world we live in. The three branches of the U.S. government help balance out the potential excesses of any one. So the secular world takes from, but also balances, the demands of the *moral* community so that we can coexist. Mike was not calling for the Scout, in question, to avoid telling the truth or accepting the consequences. IMO, he was suggesting that there is an appropriate process and venue to address what is, after all, a secular issue and being assured that he is afforded due process. Those processes are designed to prevent that school school principal, or us, from acting out of passion or without deliberation. Which, of course brings me to G. John Marmet*s legitimate concerns on how we recognize and acquire wisdom, and how we are prone to replace thought with formulae, which lacks compassion. Like him, I cannot solve it. There are instances in which I, too, believe in zero tolerance. There are behaviors which need to be circumscribed - generally, ones that harm others. But the accused still needs to be afforded real, not the illusion of, due process. CNN, as it happens, was also covering the Congressional hearings on alleged IRS excesses, and internally disparate treatment based on levels of power. I recognized the problem, not from the IRS but from another agency where I served nearly 30 years. I would guess that horror stories could be told of the private sector, too. The same message conveyed to that Fifth Grader continues into later life - tell now and you suffer, tell later and you suffer, too. Inner satisfaction can come at an awful price. Whistleblowers are often punished, and the crimes of perpetrators are expunged if they cooperate. I am reminded of an instance where, in public session, I asked the Secretary of Housing and Urban Development what he was prepared to do to protect Whistleblowers. His answer was: R...do you mean squealers?S. So, what are we to teach our kids? YIS Jay Thal From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Wed Apr 29 23:08:06 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id XAA26547 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:08:06 -0400 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA29754 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 06:57:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8238; Thu, 30 Apr 98 06:57:15 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1283; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 06:57:28 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 1035 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 06:56:18 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1034; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 06:32:48 -0500 Approved-By: EIDSON@TCUBVM Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8789; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:56:57 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 29 Apr 98 14:56:41 CDT Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IWG1TNYWBK00HELT@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for Scouts-L@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:56:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from EC92@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id LZUa002436; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:55:14 -0400 (EDT) MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 83 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <1ae51667.354785a3@aol.com> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:55:14 -0400 Reply-To: EC92 Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: EC92 Subject: What are we teaching?-TOO LONG X-To: chuckb@AZTEC.ASU.EDU, Scouts-L@tcu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 4/29/98 10:52:16 AM, chuckb@AZTEC.ASU.EDU wrote: >The Situation: A Fifth Grader happens to witness the theft of a test answer >sheet by some others. If he tells then, he will be targeted and probably hurt. >Naturally scared, he goes home, and talks to his folks about it. The next >morning, he does report the incident to the school authorities. > >The Result: _He_ is placed on 5 day no-recess, 5 day community service, and 5 >day lunch detention. (No word about the others.) > >His crime? Not telling _fast_ enough. > >The Lesson: According to him "Never tell the truth. Ever." > >Knowing this columnist, he has more than likely distorted some of the facts. >However, knowing the school system where this occurred, he may _not_ have. > >So, again, I ask: "What are _we_ teaching our kids?" I say this applies here, especially in the last few days with the drinking/smoking Troop leaders and the "fresh" chicken dinners and the sage offered as MJ to fellow Scouts, one of whom calls home. What are we teaching them through school AND is Scouting in the US getting to be the same way? We come down hard on drinking in the BSA. Perhaps because of the abuse of the substance. Perhaps because it is thought to be not setting a good example. I question whether or not showing Scouts leaders drinking sensibly wouldn't sometimes be as strong (and good) a message as some get at home or from TV when a parent or sports star drinks too much. But the relatively recent crackdown on smoking? Sets a bad example we're told, yet sensibly smoking and showing careful concern for the outdoors and even more careful disposal of the remains can't be bad, on the other hand. And some of the adults now leaders got started on the habit so long ago they were told it was healthy for them. So now we ostracize them and even worry about a Scout whose gear says MARLBORO on it, as we recently discussed? At one time conservation programs meant allowing Scouters or donors to hunt Scout camps. Need I point out that such things are rapidly being removed from the program? How many camps are getting over populated with game and are posted with signs telling everyone that no one can hunt there? How many councils ran a notice saying the same in their newsletters? I know of one camp in Illinois (not my council) where the deer herd needs to be reduced by about half, but it won't happen. Is it any wonder someone over-reacted to the chicken dinner? And while we are assuming that camo is a no-no (tell me that when I bought my Gore-Tex rain gear years before and convince me not to use it anyway) because of the possible military ties, could it also be to keep Scouting from being seen as a bunch of camouflaged hunters? Is it a lot of over reaction or is it actually something we need to follow to do our best at growing good Scouts? How long before I am REQUIRED to check my personal meds in and leave them with the camp office, even for overnights? At my son's high school they have a simple rule. No drinking. Anywhere. Anytime. Even with your parents at home or a wedding with champaign. Who follows this rule? The better students, some of them Scouts I'm sure. The bottom of the class? They could care less and don't see how the school can catch them off property (and I don't know how either, unless one has an auto accident while drunk). They have the same rule about drugs - which are as prevalent in the school district as they were when I was a student there in the late 1970's. So how do all these "no tolerance" rules actually work out in the communities? And how does it change our units, if at all? Tom Petrik From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Wed Apr 29 13:33:14 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA01799 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:33:14 -0400 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA12912 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:24:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7665; Wed, 29 Apr 98 12:23:46 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8082; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:23:56 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 8072 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:23:12 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8071; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:23:06 -0500 Received: from mail.xnet.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 29 Apr 98 12:22:44 CDT Received: from n9ssg.xnet.com (n9ssg.xnet.com [204.248.48.203]) by mail.xnet.com (8.8.6/XNet-3.0R) with SMTP id MAA19733; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:21:55 -0500 (CDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.00 beta 6) Message-ID: <199804291721.MAA19733@mail.xnet.com> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:22:59 -0600 Reply-To: David Yanke Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: David Yanke Subject: Re: Moral Dilemma X-To: "settummanque, or blackeagle (Mike Walton)" To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980428192547.00ae8338@mail.dynasty.net> Status: RO X-Status: Sorry for quoting this whole thing, but I did not want something taken out of context. Reply at end.. Gather 'round and hear what settummanque, or blackeagle (Mike Walton) had to say at 14:25 on 28 Apr 98, > >A Scout makes a mistake. He holds a controlled substance for a friend. > > The friend is pretty, smart and female. (Facts not comments on > > society). Female is busted and rats out Scout. Scout is called into > > school office > >and asked if he is in possession. > > > >The Scout Oath and Law would require the Scout to answer honestly. > > However, an honest answer gets the Scout arrested for possession of a > >controlled substance, a felony. The felony gets you thrown out of > >>school > and having to deal with the criminal justice system and me, a >lawyer. > > >Lying allows the Scout to walk. > >Saying nothing allows the Scout to > walk. > >1. What does the Scout Do. > > "I am sorry, Mr. Moss. I choose not to say anything about this until I > consult with my parents and our (family) lawyer. I am not trying to evade > your question, but I want to know my rights as a citizen before I answer." > > He says nothing until he hires a lawyer. confides with his counselor, and > makes a statement as to what happened to the local school authorities. > Natually, he needs to also confides with his parents and explains the > entire situation including the situation in which he was used by this > beautiful young woman. > > Scouts don't lie, even when it's "convienent" for them or is to their best > benefit. By seeking legal representation, surely between the two lawyers > a favorable resolution can be obtained. Not being a lawyer, I don't know > much about that part....but I've read enough papers and John Grisham > novels to know that pleabargining is a part too of American life > *grinning* > > While the Scout Oath and Law should be the moral compass here, Jim, ther's > also the Consitutional laws and acts which as citizens overrides the Scout > rules. I would have the Scout to seek representation, and only then, does > he honestly and forthrightly explain his role in the situation. > > This may be the difference between him serving time and him seeing the > young lady serve time. > > That's what *I* would recommend..... > > Thanks for making my mind work this morning, even though this was > discussed a short time back. I'm just getting to the "m"s today!! I am more than a little disturbed that this is even a question. Yes, he admits it. Yes, he broke the law. Yes, he should be dealing with consequences. There isn't even a gray area here. I would hope before the school pursued any questioning like this his parents would be contacted and present, and he does have the right to request that. This wasn't a little "mistake" and he wasn't "used" by someone without consenting, he broke the law and it is his responsibility. I'm hoping these aren't real occurrences. I also have to wonder why hypothetical questions are even being asked on this list. To state that "Constitutional laws and acts" override moralility is just plain inappropriate. "I'll only tell the truth if you meet MY conditions" is in no way being honest or forthright. Are we passing similar attitude on to the scouts? I know this may come across as a flame, and maybe it is, but we really need to start worrying about what is right before we ask if it's legal. ___________________________________________________________ Some people are like blisters, they don't show up until the work is done. - Paul Carruth Dave Yanke - N9SSG mailto:n9ssg@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~pack335 PGP Key ID 95299BA1. Email with subject 'send n9ssg pgp' for key PGP Fingerprint: 4A 4D 54 3C 2D 27 8D 19 69 42 2E D7 BF 80 10 40 From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Wed Apr 29 13:20:01 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA29955 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:20:01 -0400 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA12211 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:11:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7565; Wed, 29 Apr 98 11:09:14 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7629; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:09:24 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 7624 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:08:08 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7623; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:08:07 -0500 Received: from imo30.mx.aol.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 29 Apr 98 11:07:46 CDT Received: from GMarmet@aol.com by imo30.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id JPSRa02449 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:06:44 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 61 Message-ID: <77caaaae.35475015@aol.com> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:06:44 EDT Reply-To: GMarmet Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: GMarmet Subject: Re: U.S.: What are we teaching our kids? To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: D << The Situation: A Fifth Grader happens to witness the theft of a test answer sheet by some others. If he tells then, he will be targeted and probably hurt. Naturally scared, he goes home, and talks to his folks about it. The next morning, he does report the incident to the school authorities. The Result: _He_ is placed on 5 day no-recess, 5 day community service, and 5 day lunch detention. (No word about the others.) His crime? Not telling _fast_ enough. The Lesson: According to him "Never tell the truth. Ever." This is probably not a Scouts-L issue, but I will wade in anyway. In my opinion, what is described is a direct result of a failure of our society to recognize wisdom and a failure to learn how to acquire wisdom. If the results described are true, they result from a not uncommon school "no toleration" policy. This is the same sort of policy that gives students taking aspirin in school a suspension for drug use. Our society has gotten to the point where we have forgotten how to think. And we have forgotten why we used to put people who can think in responsible positions. Instead, because we are concerned about certain behaviours, and because we do not trust the ability of administrators to properly handle certain behaviours, we create no exceptions- no tolerance rules. This is the same theory that was promulgated to cut down a judges ability to grant appropriate sentences in certain federal and state criminal matters. How do you solve it? Beats me. For my part I try to teach using wisdom, rather than manipulating facts. I love my computer. But all the data manipulation in the world will not create the answer to moral or life experience questions. For that you need wisdom. The wisdom found in our great books, like the bible, like the great moral thinkers, ranging from Aristotle to Jesus to Moses to Emerson, and in some instances, Baden Powell or Bill Hillcourt. Wow. Send flames. Send them now. I will hide. Yours in Scouting, G. John Marmet From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Wed Apr 29 11:55:50 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id LAA11348 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:55:50 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7522; Wed, 29 Apr 98 10:45:19 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7360; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:45:33 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 7355 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:44:41 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7354; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:44:39 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 29 Apr 98 10:44:05 CDT Received: from post6.inre.asu.edu (post6.inre.asu.edu) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IWFT05HSYO00HSZL@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for SCOUTS-L@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:43:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp1.asu.edu by asu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #24133) with ESMTP id <01IWFOSTSX8S99H55Z@asu.edu> for SCOUTS-L@TCU.EDU; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:42:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from aztec.asu.edu (aztec2.asu.edu [198.60.132.11]) by smtp1.asu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA12364 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:42:45 -0700 (MST) Received: by aztec.asu.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA27178; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:42:34 -0700 (MST) Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: <9804291542.AA27178@aztec.asu.edu> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:42:34 -0700 Reply-To: CHUCK BRAMLET Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: CHUCK BRAMLET Subject: U.S.: What are we teaching our kids? X-To: SCOUTS-L@TCU.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: D Recalling a few earlier discussions here, concerning similar situations, I am posting this that I found in the local scandal rag this morning. It was in a column by one of our rabble- rousers, but it poses a good question. The Situation: A Fifth Grader happens to witness the theft of a test answer sheet by some others. If he tells then, he will be targeted and probably hurt. Naturally scared, he goes home, and talks to his folks about it. The next morning, he does report the incident to the school authorities. The Result: _He_ is placed on 5 day no-recess, 5 day community service, and 5 day lunch detention. (No word about the others.) His crime? Not telling _fast_ enough. The Lesson: According to him "Never tell the truth. Ever." Knowing this columnist, he has more than likely distorted some of the facts. However, knowing the school system where this occurred, he may _not_ have. So, again, I ask: "What are _we_ teaching our kids?" YiS, Chuck Bramlet, ASM Troop 323, Firebird District, Grand Canyon Council, Phoenix, Az. Member DNRC I "used to be" an Antelope! WEM-10-95 mailto:chuckb@aztec.asu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "With every deed, you are sowing a seed, though the harvest you may not see." -- Ella Wheeler Wilcox ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Wed Apr 29 06:17:56 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id GAA06986 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 06:17:56 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7205; Wed, 29 Apr 98 05:09:46 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5404; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 05:09:58 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 2480 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 05:08:47 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2479; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:27:14 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 28 Apr 98 14:26:26 CDT Received: from mx1.dynasty.net (mx1.dynasty.net) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IWEMHUGKTS00HYJB@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for scouts-l@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:25:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from jessica ([208.205.50.96]) by mx1.Dynasty.Net (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAE157; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:25:50 -0500 X-Sender: blkeagle@mail.dynasty.net MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19980428192547.00ae8338@mail.dynasty.net> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:25:47 -0500 Reply-To: "settummanque, or blackeagle (Mike Walton)" Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "settummanque, or blackeagle (Mike Walton)" Subject: Re: Moral Dilemma X-To: "James H. Moss" , scouts-l@tcu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Lawyer Jim Moss gave us all something to think about...it didn't take me much time to think about this: >A Scout makes a mistake. He holds a controlled substance for a friend. > The friend is pretty, smart and female. (Facts not comments on society). > Female is busted and rats out Scout. Scout is called into school office >and asked if he is in possession. > >The Scout Oath and Law would require the Scout to answer honestly. > However, an honest answer gets the Scout arrested for possession of a >controlled substance, a felony. The felony gets you thrown out of >school and having to deal with the criminal justice system and me, a >lawyer. > >Lying allows the Scout to walk. > >Saying nothing allows the Scout to walk. > >1. What does the Scout Do. "I am sorry, Mr. Moss. I choose not to say anything about this until I consult with my parents and our (family) lawyer. I am not trying to evade your question, but I want to know my rights as a citizen before I answer." He says nothing until he hires a lawyer. confides with his counselor, and makes a statement as to what happened to the local school authorities. Natually, he needs to also confides with his parents and explains the entire situation including the situation in which he was used by this beautiful young woman. Scouts don't lie, even when it's "convienent" for them or is to their best benefit. By seeking legal representation, surely between the two lawyers a favorable resolution can be obtained. Not being a lawyer, I don't know much about that part....but I've read enough papers and John Grisham novels to know that pleabargining is a part too of American life *grinning* While the Scout Oath and Law should be the moral compass here, Jim, ther's also the Consitutional laws and acts which as citizens overrides the Scout rules. I would have the Scout to seek representation, and only then, does he honestly and forthrightly explain his role in the situation. This may be the difference between him serving time and him seeing the young lady serve time. That's what *I* would recommend..... Thanks for making my mind work this morning, even though this was discussed a short time back. I'm just getting to the "m"s today!! Settummanque! (c) 1997 Mike Walton ("no such thing as strong coffee,...") (502) 827-9201 (settummanque, the blackeagle) http://dynasty.net/users/blkeagle 241 Fairview Dr., Henderson, KY 42420-4339 blkeagle@dynasty.net kyblkeagle@aol.com or waltonm@hq.21taacom.army.mil ---- FORWARD in service to youth ---- From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Wed Apr 29 23:31:28 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail2.bellatlantic.net (mail2.bellatlantic.net [151.196.0.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id XAA04816 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:31:28 -0400 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail2.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA05414 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 07:50:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8331; Thu, 30 Apr 98 07:50:30 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2252; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 07:50:06 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 9100 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 07:49:10 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9099; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:12:01 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 29 Apr 98 16:11:54 CDT Received: from caldwell.cc.nc.us by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IWG4GXGTW000HQYC@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for SCOUTS-L@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:11:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Compserv.Caldwell.cc.nc.us ([10.50.1.46]) by caldwell.cc.nc.us; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:17:25 -0400 X-Sender: tudorj@204.255.136.1 MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: <01IWG4GZLYPE00HQYC@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:10:30 -0400 Reply-To: John Tudor Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: John Tudor Subject: Re: U.S.: What are we teaching our kids? X-To: CHUCK BRAMLET X-cc: SCOUTS-L@TCU.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <9804291542.AA27178@aztec.asu.edu> Status: RO X-Status: At 08:42 AM 4/29/98 -0700, CHUCK BRAMLET said: > >The Lesson: According to him "Never tell the truth. Ever." > >Knowing this columnist, he has more than likely distorted some >of the facts. However, knowing the school system where this >occurred, he may _not_ have. > >So, again, I ask: "What are _we_ teaching our kids?" > Chuck, This reminds me of another story that was in the news recently: A girl, who is an honor student at a middle school, got in trouble for having a knife at school. We all know that you can't bring knives to school anymore, so it sounds like she should be in trouble, but here are the details.... The girls mother packed lunch for both of them that day, and somehow they got crossed by the time the girl got to school. The mother had packed an apple for herself, along with a paring knife to peel and cut it with. When the student noticed what had happened, knowing about the school districts "Zero Tolerance" policy for weapons(knives), she immediately told her teacher what had happened. Should have been a piece of cake for the teacher: thank the student for coming to her, take the knife and either return it at the end of the day, or have the mother come pick it up, and tell both to be more careful in the future. Not so!!!! The teacher went ballistic, took the student to the office where the principal confiscated the knife, and expelled the student for breaking the "zero tolerance" policy. This honor student had never been in a minutes worth of trouble prior to this incident. After a lawyer was brought in to the matter, and the school board was also brought in, the student was re-instated, but at what cost? Not to mention the unnecessary cost of the lawyer to the parents, the loss of several days in school, black marks on the students record, and the loss of confidence in school officials. The lesson to the student?? KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT. Doing the right thing only gets you in trouble, if you say nothing, you stand a good chance of no punishment. I echo the question, What are we teaching our children???? John Tudor ASM Troop 184 Morganton, NC Troop 184 Web Site http://www.bsa.net/nc/t184 Wood Badge SR-201 1997 QBSA Radio 1997, News Director I used ta be a "Bad News Bear".....I can hardly "Bear" it!!! "Try not, Do, or Do Not, There is no try!" YODA, The Empire Strikes Back mailto:tudorj@hci.net "Eny eereras in typin are a sign of creativiti by the aouther end knot necessseserily a sign uf typin abilitie." :)