From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Tue Apr 7 08:46:32 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id IAA26988 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 08:46:32 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1126; Tue, 07 Apr 98 04:48:44 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6982; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 04:48:35 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 5691 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 04:47:37 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5690; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 18:56:35 -0500 Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Mon, 06 Apr 98 18:56:27 CDT Received: by corn.cso.niu.edu id AA04609 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for list scouts-l ); Mon, 6 Apr 1998 18:55:58 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 18:55:58 -0500 Reply-To: golden cliff Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: golden cliff Subject: Philmont Trek Length X-To: Philmont List X-cc: ExplorerNet To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <35259CAF.1371@igg-tx.net> Status: RO X-Status: > > If Philmont shortened treks to say, 10 days, that would allow about 600 more > > hikers. Because that only opens up 2 arrival days at the end. If Philmont > > added 10 more arrival days (impractical because current school schedules > > would not allow for enough participants or staff) that would only give space > > to 3,000 more hikers. If Philmont shortened the treks to 9 days, 7 on the trail and 2 in base, then extended the season from 60 arrival dates to 70, it would be possible to increase Philmont opportunities to 31,500 campers. Possible dates could be June 8 to August 16 (currently June 11-Aug 9 for year 2000). Currently they allow 300 arrivals each day for a 12 day program. That puts the base camp population at 600 campers (300 arriving, 300 departing), with a trail population of 3,000 campers, (300x10) during the height of the season. If they increased arrivals to 450 campers/day that would increase the base camp population to 900 (50% increase), while barely affecting the backcountry population, bringing it up to 3,150 campers (5% increase) because of the shortened trek duration (450x7). Of course that would require a major build-out at base, and increased number of rangers and starting camps. It would also mean less program opportunities on the trail and seeing less of the ranch on a 7 day trek as compared to the 10 day trek. But, it would also mean opportunities for an additional 13,500 campers/year. Current 12 day Program Proposed 9 day Program ---------------------- ---------------------- Arrivals/day... 300 campers Arrivals/day... 450 campers Base Camp...... 600 campers Base Camp...... 900 campers Trail..........3000 campers Trail..........3150 campers Arrival days....60 Arrival days....70 Arrival Dates...Jun 11-Aug 9 Arrival dates...Jun 8-Aug 16 Closing day.....Aug 21 Closing day.....Aug 25 Total Campers...18,000 Total Campers...31,500 Which would you rather see; 31,500 get a 9 day opportunity, or 18,000 get a 12 day opportunity with another 13,500 missing out entirely? That's the question you need to ask yourself. Philmont started with the base camp located at Ponil, then moved to the present location. Base Camp has been enlarged with several additions over the years. The base camp that I first saw in 1970 doesn't even remotely resemble the present day one. We need to keep up with the needs of today. If we respond to the large demand of Philmont slots in an intelligent way, then we must find a balance between supply and demand without compromising on the environmental impact of the backcountry. By shortening the time on the trail, we can give that backcountry experience to thousands of additional boys with barely increasing the backcountry camper population. How much of an experience can you get from Philmont in 9 days? Just ask anyone who has participated in an 8 day Cavalcade program or a Mountain Man program. You can get a great Philmont experience in that span of time. By each camper sacrificing 3 days, they can make room for thousands more. I think it's time for a change. What do you think? YIS, Cliff Golden Scoutmaster Troop 33/Advisor Post 333; DeKalb, Illinois Three Fires Council BSA http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/9857 From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Wed Apr 8 12:07:06 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id MAA10668 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:07:06 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2438; Wed, 08 Apr 98 10:24:42 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3695; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 10:24:44 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 3615 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 10:23:55 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3613; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 10:21:38 -0500 Approved-By: EIDSON@TCUBVM Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2961; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:44:08 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 08 Apr 98 09:44:05 CDT Received: from ACAD1.NWMISSOURI.EDU (198.209.246.2) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IVL933UGQO00FIES@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for scouts-l@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 07 Apr 1998 13:50:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from fr302.nwmissouri.edu ([207.160.205.117]) by ACAD1.NWMISSOURI.EDU with SMTP; Tue, 07 Apr 1998 13:51:47 -0500 X-Sender: 0210777@198.209.246.2 MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19980407184422.0069672c@198.209.246.2> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:44:22 -0500 Reply-To: "Jeffrey B. Lukens" <0210777@ACAD.NWMISSOURI.EDU> Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "Jeffrey B. Lukens" <0210777@ACAD.NWMISSOURI.EDU> Subject: Re: Philmont Trek Length X-To: golden cliff X-cc: scouts-l@tcu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: At 06:55 PM 4/6/98 -0500, you wrote: >If Philmont shortened the treks to 9 days, 7 on the trail and 2 in base, >then extended the season from 60 arrival dates to 70, it would be possible >to increase Philmont opportunities to 31,500 campers. Possible dates >could be June 8 to August 16 (currently June 11-Aug 9 for year 2000). > *snip* > >If they increased arrivals to 450 campers/day that would increase the >base camp population to 900 (50% increase), while barely affecting the >backcountry population, bringing it up to 3,150 campers (5% increase) >because of the shortened trek duration (450x7). > *Snip* > >Which would you rather see; 31,500 get a 9 day opportunity, or 18,000 get >a 12 day opportunity with another 13,500 missing out entirely? That's the >question you need to ask yourself. > *snip* >By shortening the time on >the trail, we can give that backcountry experience to thousands of >additional boys with barely increasing the backcountry camper population. > >By each camper sacrificing 3 days, they can make room for thousands more. > >I think it's time for a change. > >What do you think? Theoretically it could work, but you math has some flaws. True, only 150 more scouts would be on the trail each day, so it would seem that the enviromental impact would be low, but over the entire summer, you are almost doubling the number of scouts who go into the backcountry. We have all seen how deteriorated some of the more popular areas are due to over use, and imagine if twice as many people used them each year. Philmont would become a factory, just churning out arrowhead patches. I agree that it is a worthwhile experience, but for some scouts it is once in a lifetime. So why do troops try to go every other year? Some troops haven't been in 10 or more years. I think that a troop should only be allowed a trek every 4 or 5 years. This allows all more troops the opportunity to schedule a trek. Yes I have been to Philmont, Yes I want to go back, but I also want other scouts to have the same experience. If we shorten the trek length, and double the number of scouts attending, we will not have any philmont left to enjoy. Leave No Trace, it is the only way to go. YIS, Jeff -- Jeff Email: 0210777@acad.nwmissouri.edu Phone: (660) 562-6139 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Jeffrey B Lukens Northwest Missouri State University RHA President Eagle Scout Class of '92 T-5 Middlebury, CT Connecticut Rivers Council Camp Mattatuck Staff, 1990-Present ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Wed Apr 8 09:27:24 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA02715 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:27:24 -0400 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA18063 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:19:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2167; Wed, 08 Apr 98 08:18:58 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1777; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:12:26 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 1605 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:11:18 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1604; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:05:33 -0500 Received: from Mailbox.mcs.net by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 08 Apr 98 08:04:02 CDT Received: (from sbegin@localhost) by Mailbox.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id VAA02898; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 21:31:14 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: sbegin@popmail.mcs.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (16) References: <35259CAF.1371@igg-tx.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.19980407213026.38076208@popmail.mcs.net> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 21:30:26 -0500 Reply-To: Scott Begin Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Scott Begin Subject: Re: Philmont Trek Length To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <199804071235.HAA16397@Mailbox.mcs.net> Status: RO X-Status: At 06:55 PM 4/6/98 -0500, golden cliff wrote: >If Philmont shortened the treks to 9 days, 7 on the trail and 2 in base, >then extended the season from 60 arrival dates to 70, it would be possible >to increase Philmont opportunities to 31,500 campers. Possible dates >could be June 8 to August 16 (currently June 11-Aug 9 for year 2000). > >Currently they allow 300 arrivals each day for a 12 day program. That >puts the base camp population at 600 campers (300 arriving, 300 >departing), with a trail population of 3,000 campers, (300x10) during the >height of the season. > >If they increased arrivals to 450 campers/day that would increase the >base camp population to 900 (50% increase), while barely affecting the >backcountry population, bringing it up to 3,150 campers (5% increase) >because of the shortened trek duration (450x7). > >Of course that would require a major build-out at base, and increased >number of rangers and starting camps. > >It would also mean less program opportunities on the trail and seeing >less of the ranch on a 7 day trek as compared to the 10 day trek. This is something that sounds good in theory. As a Philmont Staff member, I recall speaking with a number of campers / advisors who took the shortened treks available in August, most said when they came back, they would rather take a full trek (10 nights on the trail, 2 nights in base). One big complaint with short treks was that by the time you were acclimated, you were back in base camp. In many cases, the crews just wanted more time, as the shorter trek was not enough. With short treks, especially when I worked in Logistics, I saw crews that wanted to cram 10 days worth of program into 5 nights on the trail, and as a result, they wanted to stay ONLY at staffed camps. One of the sole exceptions was a troop from somewhere in Texas that took a 5 night + 2 base camp trek because it allowed the adults to go without taking more than a week of vacation (7 nights + 1 travel in each direction). > >But, it would also mean opportunities for an additional 13,500 campers/year. > >Current 12 day Program Proposed 9 day Program >---------------------- ---------------------- >Arrivals/day... 300 campers Arrivals/day... 450 campers >Base Camp...... 600 campers Base Camp...... 900 campers >Trail..........3000 campers Trail..........3150 campers > >Arrival days....60 Arrival days....70 >Arrival Dates...Jun 11-Aug 9 Arrival dates...Jun 8-Aug 16 >Closing day.....Aug 21 Closing day.....Aug 25 > >Total Campers...18,000 Total Campers...31,500 > >Which would you rather see; 31,500 get a 9 day opportunity, or 18,000 get >a 12 day opportunity with another 13,500 missing out entirely? That's the >question you need to ask yourself. The next question: Do you want to pay the same for your 9 day program as you currently pay for the 12 day program???? The time in base camp is where campers demand the most staff time, starting with the Ranger and following to all the other places you have to check in. You are looking at a 50% increase in the number of campers arriving each day, so you are going to hire MORE staff, more rangers, more services, more logistics, more Registration, more trading post, more dining hall, etc... There were times when we thought the lines at the Health Lodge / Logistics / Services were REALLY bad with 300 campers per day arriving. When I was working at Philmont, Philmont was having problems recruiting staff. Dave Bates, who was then program director, indicated that when the economy was good, recruiting staff was hard, as they could make more money elsewhere. If you need a significant increase in staff, you will need to increase salaries to be able to attract qualified people. This further drives up cost. In addition, I'm sure that Staff also limits how far you can expand the arrival dates. Most staff members are College students (with the occasional School/College teacher who can get summers off), so the calendar has to be set according to when you can get workers. There are a lot of schools that start at the end of august, and staff need time to get home and get back to school before classes start, spending time with the family you haven't seen in 2 months is a bonus. In June, the staff need time after they get out of school to get to Philmont, plus there is between 7 days and 2 1/2 weeks of training before campers arrive. If you move this date too far forward, you may loose staff because they can't leave school soon enough (yes, there are colleges that are in session through mid to late May). In my situation, I had 4-5 weeks between final exams and when I needed to be to Philmont (I spent this time getting back in shape). I had 1 week between when I arrived home and when I needed to be back to school the first year, 4 days the second, and 1 day the last year (I arrived at school on Saturday with classes starting monday. I'm glad I didn't have to change my class schedule at Drop and Add: campus joke, what's worse than a 3 day hangover? 3 hours at Drop and Add. The registration system has improved since then) Even if you increase the staff, there are still infrastructure improvements that are needed. Currently, there are plans to expand the dining hall, with the Philmont Staff Association being asked to support this effort. This has been on the drawing board since at least 1994 (the last year I was out there), but building the new welcome center at Lover's road was a higher priority project. The current dining hall was designed with a capacity of 700-800 or so, yet in recent years, they have served over 1000 at some meals (camper load > 300 incoming / outgoing, mountain trek, Rayado, Trail Crew, Cavalcade arrival / departure dates). In addition to dining facilities, you would probably have to add at least 2-4 shower houses (currently there are 6, 3 in incoming camper Tent City, 3 in outgoing Camper Tent City) to be able to handle the additional campers, would have to expand Services (more lockers, additional laundry facilities, more space for checking equipment/food), and upgrade plumbing, electrical, etc, facilities, that is, assuming that increase in camper load wouldn't overtax the water supply, especially in dry years. >Philmont started with the base camp located at Ponil, then moved to the >present location. Base Camp has been enlarged with several additions over >the years. The base camp that I first saw in 1970 doesn't even remotely >resemble the present day one. We need to keep up with the needs of today. Yes, I will agree that the facilities at PhilTurn (Ponil) couldn't have handled the numbers that currently pass through base each summer, and I know that base has been built to handle the expanding camper demand. I'm sure that for their time, they were pretty large (a typical summer camp in the 1930's had 50-80 boys at camp, today, 200 is norm) However, improvements and additions to capacity take both time and money, money to build it to currently building codes and have it still be able to accommodate the needs, and time, to raise the money, as well as to make sure it works correctly. Money for expansion projects, as far as I know, doesn't come from camper fees, unless you would be willing to pay even higher fees to attend. For the past 10 years or so, capacity has been held steady, probably for the longest time in Philmont history. I'm sure that the Philmont Management would love to expand capacity, but they probably wouldn't be able to expand fast enough to satisfy demand. From the rumblings I've heard, they are trying their best to come up with a fairer, easier method of distributing camping slots. I haven't heard much in details, but give it a try and realize that it may take a couple of trys to get a fair system. I WANT TO GO BACK TO PHILMONT!!!!!! Scott A. Begin Philmont Ranger 1988-89, Logistics 1990 sbegin@mcs.net Philmont Staff Association Member Oak Forest, IL From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Wed Apr 8 10:13:01 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA14278 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 10:13:01 -0400 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA21434 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:05:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2262; Wed, 08 Apr 98 09:05:09 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2470; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:05:07 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 2358 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:03:58 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2357; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:55:58 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 08 Apr 98 08:55:54 CDT Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IVLL9IKMPS00FL0H@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for scouts-l@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 07 Apr 1998 19:37:56 -0600 (CST) Received: by corn.cso.niu.edu id AA06949 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for scouts-l@tcu.edu) ; Tue, 07 Apr 1998 19:37:48 -0500 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 19:37:48 -0500 Reply-To: golden cliff Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: golden cliff Subject: Re: Philmont Trek Length X-To: "Jeffrey B. Lukens" <0210777@acad.nwmissouri.edu> X-cc: scouts-l@tcu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980407184422.0069672c@198.209.246.2> Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 7 Apr 1998, Jeffrey B. Lukens wrote: > At 06:55 PM 4/6/98 -0500, you wrote: > >If Philmont shortened the treks to 9 days, 7 on the trail and 2 in base, > >then extended the season from 60 arrival dates to 70, it would be possible > >to increase Philmont opportunities to 31,500 campers. Possible dates > >could be June 8 to August 16 (currently June 11-Aug 9 for year 2000). > > > *snip* > > > >If they increased arrivals to 450 campers/day that would increase the > >base camp population to 900 (50% increase), while barely affecting the > >backcountry population, bringing it up to 3,150 campers (5% increase) > >because of the shortened trek duration (450x7). > > > *Snip* > > > >Which would you rather see; 31,500 get a 9 day opportunity, or 18,000 get > >a 12 day opportunity with another 13,500 missing out entirely? That's the > >question you need to ask yourself. > > > *snip* > > >By shortening the time on > >the trail, we can give that backcountry experience to thousands of > >additional boys with barely increasing the backcountry camper population. > > > >By each camper sacrificing 3 days, they can make room for thousands more. > > > >I think it's time for a change. > > > >What do you think? > > > Theoretically it could work, but you math has some flaws. True, only 150 > more scouts would be on the trail each day, so it would seem that the > enviromental impact would be low, but over the entire summer, you are almost > doubling the number of scouts who go into the backcountry. > > We have all seen how deteriorated some of the more popular areas are due to > over use, and imagine if twice as many people used them each year. Philmont > would become a factory, just churning out arrowhead patches. We are nearly doubling the number of boys that get to experience Philmont with only a 5% increase in total backcountry use. Shortening the time a person is in the backcountry also lessens the impact that individual has on the environment. It's twice the boys, not twice the use. When I first attended Philmont 28 years ago, there was less than half the number of hikers we have now. The increase in numbers hasn't turned it into a factory churning out arrowhead patches. This wouldn't either. Giving more boys the opportunity to attend Philmont is what this is all about. When slots are booked in 90 minutes for a season two years away, there is a major problem. > I agree that it is a worthwhile experience, but for some scouts it is once > in a lifetime. So why do troops try to go every other year? Some troops With the current demand and availability, for many Scouts Philmont is an opportunity that is none in a lifetime. > If we shorten the trek length, and > double the number of scouts attending, we will not have any philmont left to > enjoy. Shortening the trip length allows more boys to enjoy Philmont with little additional environmental impact. I totally disagree with your logic. > Leave No Trace, it is the only way to go. Wouldn't it be great if nearly twice as many boys could learn that concept first hand while hiking the trails of Philmont. YIS, Cliff Golden Scoutmaster Troop 33/Advisor Post 333; DeKalb, Illinois Three Fires Council BSA http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/9857 From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Fri Apr 10 12:56:29 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id MAA29154 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:56:29 -0400 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA22059 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 02:07:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4165; Fri, 10 Apr 98 02:07:12 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3269; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 02:07:03 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 3260 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 02:06:16 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3259; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 02:06:12 -0500 Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 10 Apr 98 02:06:08 CDT Received: by corn.cso.niu.edu id AA17402 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for list scouts-l ); Fri, 10 Apr 1998 02:05:57 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 02:05:56 -0500 Reply-To: golden cliff Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: golden cliff Subject: Re: purpose of Philmont X-To: Terry Dunnigan X-cc: Philmont List To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: The purpose of Philmont, in the eyes of Waite Phillips, was to promote the ideals of faith, self reliance, integrity, and freedom. At least that's how the plaque reads at Philmont. All high adventure programs should have equal purpose; those stated above, and the goals of Scouting; citizenship, character, and fitness. The specific activity; i.e. bicycling, backpacking, canoeing, horseback riding, etc., are just that, activities. High Adventure should run a little deeper than just a physical activity. Our troop usually sponsors several high adventure activities each year. They vary in scope dependent on the interests of the Scouts. It is the PLC that decides what our program is to be, not me. I give advice, provide information, and sometimes make proposals, but I do not vote, and I do not interfere with the PLC's discussions. I try to encourage them to look for certain things in the high adventures they choose. It should involve a challenge, whether physical in nature or technical in skill. It should provide adventure, that feeling of excitement in embarking on some new experience not quite certain of what the outcome might be. It should involve teamwork, a group working together to accomplish something that a single individual would find very difficult to attain. We also look for a spiritual element; enjoying the bounty of nature in whatever form we encounter it, and/or celebrating the product of human endeavor, where others have used their gifts to enrich humanity. The world is full of such places. We try to promote leadership and creativity by involving the Scouts as much as possible in the creation of the plan, the procurement of equipment, physical training, technical skills development, itinerary and logistics, even budget. It's their program. During the high adventure I look for areas where individual Scouts can experience some personal growth, where they can stretch their imaginations, their courage, their physical committment, or their trust of others. High adventure should build self confidence, strengthen social skills, encourage self reliance, and foster cooperation. It should provide a an escape from the rigorous routine of life so as to see it from a different vantage point. It should provide a forum for introspection and self examination. Of course there needs to be a large portion devoted to fun. The boys usually find a way to work that into just about everything they do. I just turned 44 years of age last week. For 26 of those years I've been privilaged to serve the Scouts in my troop as an ASM (5 years) and Scoutmaster (21 years). I've given over half my life to providing opportunities for boys to swim and sail oceans, backpack and ride horses across mountain ranges, bicycle endless highways, crawl through caves, and paddle wilderness lakes and wild rivers. Those high adventures have ranged from weekend programs to as long as a 6 week tour. These programs have taken place all over the United States plus 16 foreign nations. But high adventure isn't just about activities, places, and programs, it's mostly about the other things I've listed in the paragraphs above. It's not about seeing the things around you as much as it is about seeing the things within you. I believe Philmont to be more about ideals than just hiking and program activities. I don't believe finding those ideals is dependent on a certain number of days. Philmont provides us with an example of what Scouting can be. Thousands of young people from all over the nation coming together to give of themselves on the trails of Philmont. Sure they rack up plenty of hiking miles and enjoy many excellent programs, but that's not what Philmont is about. Those things are external, Philmont is internal. More boys than ever are looking to Philmont for opportunity. More boys than ever before in the history of the ranch are being turned away and denied that opportunity. That is a very sad state of affairs. You can find backpacking in other locations, you can find great programs all over the country. That brotherhood of Scouting that exists at Philmont is very unique to Philmont. Waite Phillips saw more than just hiking trails and program opportunities, he saw a place where thousands could come together and learn meaningful lessons while finding out about themselves as they experience one of the greatest adventures of their lives. I believe that is what Philmont is really all about. Shortening the treks won't destroy any of that. It will just make it possible for more boys to come to know Philmont and learn the lessons of high adventure. YIS, Cliff Golden Scoutmaster Troop 33/Advisor Post 333; DeKalb, Illinois Three Fires Council BSA http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/9857 From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Thu Apr 9 05:52:11 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id FAA04261 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 05:52:11 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3147; Thu, 09 Apr 98 00:42:11 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7052; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 00:42:10 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 7030 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 00:40:58 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7029; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 00:40:56 -0500 Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 09 Apr 98 00:40:21 CDT Received: by corn.cso.niu.edu id AA18826 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for list scouts-l ); Thu, 9 Apr 1998 00:40:09 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 00:40:08 -0500 Reply-To: golden cliff Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: golden cliff Subject: Re: Philmont Trek Length X-To: Scott Begin To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.19980407213026.38076208@popmail.mcs.net> Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 7 Apr 1998, Scott Begin wrote: > As a Philmont Staff member, I recall speaking with a number of campers / > advisors who took the shortened treks available in August, most said when > they came back, they would rather take a full trek (10 nights on the trail, > 2 nights in base). But they enjoyed Philmont, even though on a shorter trek, they had a quality experience. They wanted to come back. Most do. > One big complaint with short treks was that by the time you were > acclimated, you were back in base camp. In many cases, the crews just > wanted more time, as the shorter trek was not enough. With short treks, Some very good arguments here for longer treks. I'm not arguing that shorter treks are better than longer treks, only that by shortening treks more boys can experience Philmont. The huge signup debacle we go through every year would be mute, because Philmont could accomodate the needs of those wanting to go. Shorter treks are preferable to turning away thousands of boys each year. > One of the sole exceptions was a troop from somewhere in Texas that took a > 5 night + 2 base camp trek because it allowed the adults to go without > taking more than a week of vacation (7 nights + 1 travel in each direction). >From Illinois, we take the 8 day Cavalcade, allowing 2 days travel each way, 8 days at Philmont, preceded by 4 days touring in Colorado, for 16 days total (two week vacation with surrounding weekends). The four days of touring in Colorado prior to arrival at Philmont allows us some time to acclimate to the elevation change. It's also fun, the boys say the touring portion is one of the highlights of the trip. To do that with a 12 day Philmont expedition would require nearly 3 weeks. We can't take that much time, so we arrive by train with only 18 hours between Illinois (900 ft elevation) and base camp (6700 ft elevation). > The next question: Do you want to pay the same for your 9 day program as > you currently pay for the 12 day program???? I haven't heard as many complaints about the cost as the lack of opportunity to attend. That would be a very interesting issue though. > The time in base camp is where campers demand the most staff time, starting > with the Ranger and following to all the other places you have to check in. > > You are looking at a 50% increase in the number of campers arriving each > day, so you are going to hire MORE staff, more rangers, more services, more > logistics, more Registration, more trading post, more dining hall, etc... Base camp facility enlargement, and staff additions are all necessary to make it work. It would require a major outlay of cash and time. During the 1980's millions were raised for improvements at the Florida Sea Base. We were there in 1981 (first year of operation) and have visited as late as 1996. They have invested well over $3 million in infrastructure. We need that type of development at Philmont. > In addition, I'm sure that Staff also limits how far you can expand the > arrival dates. Most staff members are College students (with the > occasional School/College teacher who can get summers off), so the calendar > has to be set according to when you can get workers. True enough. Maybe the arrival dates should stay the same. Even keeping it at 60 arrival dates, the "7 day trek/450 camper arrival" plan would increase annual campership by 9,000. That would certainly help the situation. Philmont is now overbooked 2 years in advance. > In addition to dining facilities, you would probably have to add at least > 2-4 shower houses (currently there are 6, 3 in incoming camper Tent City, 3 > in outgoing Camper Tent City) to be able to handle the additional campers, > would have to expand Services (more lockers, additional laundry facilities, > more space for checking equipment/food), and upgrade plumbing, electrical, > etc, facilities, that is, assuming that increase in camper load wouldn't > overtax the water supply, especially in dry years. There are many needs to be addressed with the addition of 50% more campers in base. Philmont needs to start with a plan and begin working toward it. What I have proposed isn't something that is going to happen overnight. It will take time, creative planning, and lots and lots of money. > For the past 10 years or so, capacity has been held steady, probably for > the longest time in Philmont history. I'm sure that the Philmont > Management would love to expand capacity, but they probably wouldn't be In the "old days", you called Philmont any time and booked a date for the upcoming summer. Now it's booked two years in advance, filled in the first 90 minutes reservations open. Boys in our troop used to be guaranteed an opportunity to visit Philmont at least once during their Scouting careers. We went every other year, then 4 years, then 5 years. If we are lucky enough to get a spot in 2001, it will be 6 years since the last visit, which means boys are missing out. > > I WANT TO GO BACK TO PHILMONT!!!!!! > Those are familiar words, a sentiment shared by many. I wish more boys could make that statement. They first have to get there before they can want to go back. YIS, Cliff Golden Scoutmaster Troop 33/Advisor Post 333; DeKalb, Illinois Three Fires Council BSA http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/9857 From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Thu Apr 9 06:38:51 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id GAA06371 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 06:38:51 -0400 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3159; Thu, 09 Apr 98 01:28:02 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7109; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 01:27:57 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 7100 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 01:26:55 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7099; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 01:26:49 -0500 Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 09 Apr 98 01:26:07 CDT Received: by corn.cso.niu.edu id AA20492 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L ); Thu, 9 Apr 1998 01:25:56 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 01:25:55 -0500 Reply-To: golden cliff Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: golden cliff Subject: Re: Philmont Trek Length X-To: Morrisonch To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <35c1510f.352acab5@aol.com> Status: RO X-Status: > > Great math on Trekkin' at Philmont, but you may have left out the most > important figure - increased revenue. The 7 day would cost a bit less than > the 12 day, but the increase in the number of campers would significantly > increase the income from a summer's activities. OK, let's talk bottom line. Philmont would see a season's gross revenue increase by $3,150,000.00 by camper fees alone. (don't forget extra trading post income) That's if the camper fee was maintained at $350.00. That's assuming the 60 day arrival season is kept, with treks reduced to 7 days, and daily arrivals at 450 campers. This would increase base camp population by 50%, while only increasing backcountry population by less than 5%. To me the bottom line isn't the $3 million plus dollars, it's the 9,000 additional boys that could be enjoying Philmont each year. With that increased opportunity, getting a reservation wouldn't be as much of a problem. BTW, for every $10 per camper spent at base camp, that would add another $90,000.00. So if the average camper spent $50 at base camp, that would add another $450,000.00 to the trading post/snack bar revenue. My .002 worth. YIS, Cliff Golden Scoutmaster Troop 33/Advisor Post 333, DeKalb, Illinois Three Fires Council BSA From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Thu Apr 9 10:45:58 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA18122 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 10:45:58 -0400 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA02660 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:38:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3347; Thu, 09 Apr 98 09:37:09 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9136; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:37:05 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 9083 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:36:18 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9082; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:34:47 -0500 Received: from kansas.scilab.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 09 Apr 98 09:34:02 CDT Received: from [206.52.159.96] ([206.52.159.96]) by kansas.scilab.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id JAA09450 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:33:23 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: kwood@kansas.scilab.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:33:23 -0400 Reply-To: Keith Wood Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Keith Wood Subject: Philmont system To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Phil Golden has something there with his idea of shortening treks. Sommers has used six and seven day treks for years and we have a good experience there. I'm a real traditionalist and hate to change things that work, but the pressure is there to serve the kids. Most of all I hate to lose the aura and mystique of Philmont by overloading it. Cliff's suggestion of reducing trek days and extending camp days spreads the load out, but it will still make the camp busier. But I like the idea. The difficulties that I see for Philmont are several: a) walking distances at entry and exit points are far apart and all on the east. Shorter treks make it harder to reach the west side areas. The solution to shorter treks means a complete revamp of treks and additional entry points, but with no more sign ups until 2001, there is time to consider that. b) shorter hikes means less opportunity to hit the high points - literally and figuratively. Fewer treks could do both Baldy and the Tooth. That might mean more pressure for Scouts to return to Philmont a second time, thus raising the demand again. c) I'm not sure what impact more crews would have on ranger staff requirements. I suspect it would raise the need. Costs could be offset by not changing the total charge for the trip, or only slightly reducing it. d) More crews in the back country means more campsites or more camps. Those can be built but some areas are already overused and more camps reduces the wilderness experience. We really need more room, more acreage. The Valle helps..... None of those are fatal problems to the concept. Some of our leaders have commented before that a shorter trek would minimize the impact on family vacation time and work. With current system, you can impact three work weeks, depending on your arrival day. With a nine-day trek, only two weeks would be impacted at most. This solution, if adopted, would help get more Scouts into Philmont, but it can't address the problem of continued growth in Scouting and more growth in long term demand. If we shorten treks too far, we dilute the experience too much. If we expand the overall load of campers, we beat down Philmont worse that it already is. Sommers helped its situation by adding Bissett and Atikokan. Maybe in the future Philmont adds remote programs in national forests or parks for experienced crews who don't need rangers or staffed program camps. That would take a while to grow and develop its own persona; the Northern Tier did it over time. I like Cliff's concept. What do the rest of you think? Keith Wood High Adventure Advisor Troop 59 Lawrence, KS "..used to be a Lightning BobWhite" --------------------------- Keith Wood Support Services Manager Morris Systems Support Group Morris Communications Corporation kwood@scilab.com 800.777.7171 --------------------------- /\ ~~~ ~ ~ /\ / \ ~~ ^ /\ / \/ \ /\ ^ ^/ \ / /\ \/ \ ^ ^^ ^ \/ / \ \ /\ ^ ^ ____________________ "The mountains are calling and I must go." John Muir