From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Mon Mar 23 09:05:27 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id JAA17928 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:05:27 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9295; Mon, 23 Mar 98 07:57:50 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0588; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:59:08 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 0472 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:58:21 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0470; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:46:21 -0500 Approved-By: EIDSON@TCUBVM Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7553; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 21:21:35 -0500 Received: from raven.sat.net by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Sun, 22 Mar 98 21:21:33 CDT Received: from dswank ([209.117.228.242]) by raven.sat.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA25258 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 21:07:52 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <3515D30C.275C@sat.net> Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 21:12:12 -0600 Reply-To: Kris & David Swank Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Kris & David Swank Subject: Uniform Fabric To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: While wool has many wonderful attributes one must keep in mind that many people are very allergic to wool. If I wear most wool without a liner of some sort I itch then break out in welts. Its a very uncomfortable situation! I wear my uniform alot and I don't know what I'd do if it were changed to wool. Also, I wear other olive colored slacks with my uniform because the pants are so poorly cut for women. I absolutly lothe seeing the white pocket lining in the pants while being worn. I know there are ladies cut pants/shorts but they are hard to find and I hate to order without knowing how something fits. Massive returns are a pain. YIS, Kristen Swank Cubmaster & Jack of All Trades Pack 392 Winnsboro, Tx dswank@sat.net From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Mon Mar 23 09:36:54 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA26259 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:36:54 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA17054 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:29:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9354; Mon, 23 Mar 98 08:29:09 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1264; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:30:27 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 1969 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:29:31 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1967; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:43:17 -0500 Received: from nd.edu by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 20 Mar 98 11:42:49 CDT Received: from nd.nd.edu (actually smith-13a.investment.nd.edu) by nd.edu with ND-SMTP (PP); Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:05:52 -0500 X-Sender: Roman.J.Smith.13@nd.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <2.2.16.19980320170525.38bfa8d2@nd.edu> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:05:25 -0500 Reply-To: "Roman J. Smith" Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "Roman J. Smith" Subject: Uniform pants To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: > The uniform is practical attire for Scout activities, and > provides a way for Scouts to wear the badges that show > what they have accomplished. > > >What is the official uniform? It is described in the Boy >Scout Handbook and in the Uniform and Insignia Guide. I do not see the BSA pants as very practical. Maybe we need to dump the concept of uniform "pants", make the shorts "the" official part of the "Field" uniform and allow units to adopt their own "cold weather" pants. BSA can offer the current pants for sale just as they offer other "activity" pieces for sale. Units that wish to, could then require the current pants as the "cold weather" attire. I will the rest of you battle out the length of sox required.:-) Of course that would mean that shorts would be required at all Eagle BoRs. Now that I am in my shorts, I can feel very comfortable amoung the flames. :-) YiS ----------------------------------- Roman J. Smith Investment Office University of Notre Dame Notre Dame, IN 46556 (219)631-4624 Fax: (219)631-8223 E-Mail: roman.j.smith.13@nd.edu ------------------------------------ Assistant Scoutmaster Troop 505 I used to be an Owl... I'm going to work my ticket if I can. From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Mon Mar 23 09:38:38 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA26810 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:38:38 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA17148 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:30:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9356; Mon, 23 Mar 98 08:30:37 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1292; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:31:53 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 2111 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:30:46 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2110; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:07:14 -0500 Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR04 by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 20 Mar 98 12:07:11 CDT Received: from laptop - 206.206.184.242 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:04:00 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <06abc0004181438UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 08:07:54 -0700 Reply-To: Mark Griffin Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Mark Griffin Subject: Re: Uniforming To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: If you have comments on the uniform, send them to: Joseph Coco Director Supply Division, BSA P.O. Box 7143 Charlotte, NC 28241-7143 Believe it or not, the Boy Scout and Cub Scout divisions have little to do with the design of the uniform. They are mostly responsible for the insignia and accessories. From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Tue Mar 24 13:22:38 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA11882 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:22:38 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA17158 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:22:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0443; Tue, 24 Mar 98 08:22:37 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7550; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 08:23:55 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 7539 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 08:23:10 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7538; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 08:23:09 -0500 Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 24 Mar 98 08:23:03 CDT Received: from CoopWright@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id JCICa19887 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:21:33 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:21:33 EST Reply-To: CoopWright Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: CoopWright Subject: Uniforming Policy To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: I don't want to go nuts on this uniform question, but we have a responsiblity when we as adults take scouts out in the backcountry to be prepared to handle the elements. Please take a look at both the Fieldbook and the new Passport to High Adventure. These are official BSA publications and they show scouts and adults in the field not wearing their complete scout uniform. However, they are dressed for the outdoors. Also check the Backpacking Merit Badge pamphlet for the same type pictures. To state that we are required to wear full scout uniform on all scouting functions including backpacking and canoe trips is stretching things just a bit. Safety first everyone. Let's not let the forest get in the way of the trees. One year I saw an entire crew at Philmont wearing cotton t-shirts (the death cloth) and scout shorts. The shorts by their cut, can really restrict leg movement and chafe the inner leg. These guys had reached a point where they had to wash their shorts and underwear. Anyone want to venture how long it took that crew to get dry clothes? Our crews dress for the outdoors when they are in the outdoors and wear their uniforms when back home. Cooper Wright ASM-Venture, Troop 1519 Alexandria, VA From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Tue Mar 24 12:47:52 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id MAA26553 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:47:52 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA10627 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 01:24:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0196; Tue, 24 Mar 98 00:23:31 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5704; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 00:16:26 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 5401 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 00:15:26 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5400; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 23:34:51 -0500 Received: from pacific-mail.curtco.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Mon, 23 Mar 98 23:34:43 CDT Received: from 206.101.51.72 by pacific-mail.curtco.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1458.49) id H2W36NAS; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:17:55 -0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <35164631.4435@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:23:39 +0000 Reply-To: Larry Tuck Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Larry Tuck Subject: Re: Uniiforming To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: RAGerhard wrote: > > In a message dated 98-03-20, Joseph A. Alessi writes: > > << I don't expect that we want one > uniform that should be worn at meetings, courts of honor, > backpacking at Philmont, on the road to and from camp, > while building a pioneering tower, or while taking > lifesaving merit badge >> > Someone pointed out in another response to this thread that B-P didn't live/hike/camp in places like the US Gulf Coast...to which you could add the Mojave Desert, the High Sierra, Minnesota in summer or winter, etc., etc. The point is that climate and other conditions vary tremendously around this great land of ours, both with geography and time of year. We probably also engage in a greater range of activities than Scouts did in the good old days. Even here in Southern California, which doesn't have much in the way of weather I find it hard to imagine a single uniform that would have been comfortable last month when our troop got caught in an El Nino storm that dumped two inches of rain overnight; at Winter Camp in the mountains the month before when it snowed; and will be equally suited for canoeing on the Colorado River next month, and rock climbing in the desert later in the year. So while I agree that there's room for improvement, I think that from an outdoor activities standpoint it's unrealistic and probably undesireable to expect to come up with a single, all-purpose uniform for the BSA. I seem to recall reading something by Baden-Powell that talked about the uniform being something that attracted the boys to scouting--"I'm a Scout (partly) because I get to wear a neat uniform." This doesn't seem to be the case anymore; most boys I work with will use any excuse they can think of not to wear their uniform. I don't think this is a comfort or practicality issue, but a fashion issue. What we ought to be asking here is, what could we do--if anything--to make wearing the scout uniform more desireable for a 12 or 13 year old? "I wear the uniform because I'm proud to be a Scout," is good, certainly better than "I have to wear the uniform because I'm a Scout." But is there a way we can get back to "I want to be a Scout so I can wear that cool uniform"? All other arguments aside, the statement that kids *like* BDU-style pants is probably the most relevant point in this entire thread. We can't change the uniform every year (month?) to keep up with the whims of pre-teen fashion, but anything that we can do to make the uniform more appealing to the boys, and therefore make them more willing to wear it, is worth considering. In the mean time: Our troop is pretty strict about by-the-book uniforming for meetings and non-camping activities. For camping and hiking, we and most troops I know about give the boys latitude to dress appropriately for the activity, though we usually require them to wear our troop t-shirt, which is practical for most activities and provides some consistency and group identification. OTOH I've worn the official uniform (cotton/poly blend version) for car camping (I can't imagine backpacking in it) and both I and the uniform survived the weekend. Same with my son. One final thought: Someone hinted at going to a wool uniform. Wool is relatively expensive and some of us find it itchy. I don't usually wear a suit to work, but when I do wear a wool suit, I have a rash on my legs by the end of the day and can't wait to get it off. I regrefully gave my red wool shirt-jac to my wife because it gave me a rash on the back of my neck. Final, final thought: I really do love the BSA uniform, whether it's the current-day Khaki and Olive or my circa-1970 Explorer green shirt (we won't talk about those old shorts). There's nothing in my closet I'd rather be wearing...even if the pants don't have enough pockets . Sorry for the long post. Larry Tuck ASM, Troop 761 Thousand Oaks, CA From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Mon Mar 23 10:28:57 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA08306 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:28:57 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA20661 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:21:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9479; Mon, 23 Mar 98 09:19:39 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1951; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:20:42 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 1942 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:19:32 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1941; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:19:30 -0500 Received: from phyas1.mps.ohio-state.edu by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Mon, 23 Mar 98 09:18:53 CDT Received: from dalek.mps.ohio-state.edu by mps.ohio-state.edu (PMDF V5.1-9 #19875) with SMTP id <01IV039FL0TQ8X2MEC@mps.ohio-state.edu> for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:15:50 EST X-Sender: dalek@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <01IV039FR65C8X2MEC@mps.ohio-state.edu> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:15:49 -0500 Reply-To: Dale Karweik Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Dale Karweik Subject: Uniforming To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, After reading several postings this morning, I wanted to set part of the record straight. I have worn my uniform proudly for the 14 years i have been an adult leader. I usually wear pants and shirt to all Scouting activities - indoor and outdoor. I have finally succeeded in wearing out a long sleeve shirt after 10 years as a Scout leader. I wore the shorts until I finally wore out by old pairs and had to buy the new ones. As leaders we have a responsibility to lead by example. However, when health and safety issues arise - then we also have to use common sense. I wear the new shorts for dress occasions, but I have had to abandon them for backpacking. I still wear the long pants for most outdoor activities when camping with the Scouts, but when I go on my own I always wear the olive "BDU's" (that is the name applied at the store where I bought them). I have no problems with the long and short sleeve shirts. I wear them 3 to 5 nights a week and on at least two weekends each month. I would like to have an equally good set of pants to accompany them. I don't think that is too much to ask for. As a final note, I believe that the Chartering Organization owns the local franchise for Boy Scouting at the unit level. If the CO agrees to uniforming changes or program changes then a unit can customize the program to meet local needs. Uniforming could be modified to meet a local need by my definition. Dale Karweik From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Mon Mar 23 10:35:54 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA10115 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:35:54 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA21202 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:28:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9489; Mon, 23 Mar 98 09:27:55 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2025; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:29:03 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 2016 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:28:05 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2015; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:28:03 -0500 Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Mon, 23 Mar 98 09:25:51 CDT Received: from RAGerhard@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id JQBWa07553 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:22:56 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Message-ID: <2bb792f8.35167e52@aol.com> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:22:56 EST Reply-To: RAGerhard Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: RAGerhard Subject: Re: Uniforms To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 98-03-22, Steve Featherkile wrote: << Just wanted to say that my long sleeve BSA Issue kacki shirt has done quite well as a warm weather backpacking and canoeing shirt. >> Until Steve mentioned his, it didn't occur to me that no one is complaining about the shirts! (Well, at least since the women got the khaki shirt option!) Looks like the BSA has one hit on its hands!! Maybe two...no one's complaining about the belt, either... <}8^) YiS Robert Gerhard Cubmaster & Webelos ADL BSA Pack 83, Ft. Worth, TX From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Mon Mar 23 11:31:16 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id LAA23016 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:31:16 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA25061 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:23:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9529; Mon, 23 Mar 98 10:22:09 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2173; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:23:12 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 2164 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:22:14 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2163; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:22:12 -0500 Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Mon, 23 Mar 98 10:21:07 CDT Received: from RAGerhard@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id JXEMa03893 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:18:52 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Message-ID: <4e328f0a.35168b6e@aol.com> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:18:52 EST Reply-To: RAGerhard Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: RAGerhard Subject: Re: Uniiforming To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: This came to me as part of a private message, but it relates directly to the thread and brings up a valid issue or two, so I'm taking it to the list: << BSA uniforms are for those events were we need to display our rank (troop meeting), are at a inter-troop event (camporee), at a formal afair (CoH), or representing BSA to the public intentionaly (Flag cerimony). They are not needed when the troop is camping alone on some high-adventure outing. For that you wear something that is appropiate for the turain and weather. >> I haven't taken a look at a Scout Handbook in quite a while (being that I'm a Cub Leader now) but mine had a quote from Green Bar Bill saying I was to wear my uniform "at all Scout functions." And I don't think I've ever seen a picture of Bill out camping in anything but his uniform. That's the whole point: anyone can be out camping. WE are SCOUTS out camping and need to be easily recognizable as such. Seriously, I would like an uniform that I could wear rock climbing one day and then to my COH the next day. (In fact, I have done that in the old shorts!) I think that's the crux of the debate: One uniform with a greater range of appropriate use and/or a greater variety of uniform options from which units could assemble their own "official uniform." Granted, no one uniform is going to cover all the bases. No one item of clothing period will do that. But I think, and the apparent consensus is that we could have a uniform that is more functional. Perhaps a better approach is a broader variety of uniform options: The introduction of wool for cold weather units. Klondike grade uniform parts. Fast drying synthetics for canoeing/kayaking/rainy season hiking. From these, a unit could assemble an appropriate uniform and still be recognizable as Scouts. But first things first. Let's get those cargo pockets back!!! Robert Gerhard Cubmaster & Webelos ADL BSA Pack 83, Ft. Worth, TX From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Mon Mar 23 12:33:06 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail2.bellatlantic.net (mail2.bellatlantic.net [151.196.0.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id MAA08421 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:33:06 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail2.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA03424 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:25:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9605; Mon, 23 Mar 98 11:21:59 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2452; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:23:04 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 2439 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:20:19 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2438; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:20:17 -0500 Received: from tcs.wap.org by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Mon, 23 Mar 98 11:10:14 CDT Received: by tcs.wap.org (Stalker Internet Mail Server 1.6) with FILE id S.0000022054 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:06:02 -0500 Message-ID: <1998Mar23.121709.77@tcs.wap.org> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:17:21 EST Reply-To: Jay Thal Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Jay Thal Organization: Washington Apple Pi, Ltd. user group in Washington, D.C. Subject: Uniforming To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: I, too, can buy into the principal that our uniforms should be made in non-sweatshop conditions, in the USA, and (preferrable) by members of the ILGWU. I can also see that that will raise the production costs compared to brands which are produced in Malaysia or Honduras. That means that the corporation (in this case BSA) which markets its label, tags its profit margin above the production costs (though the advertising costs are nil). But that doesn't explain why similar USA made products sell for less, or are discounted. It also seems to me that if BSA restricts its non-Scout Shop retailers from selling items at less than the catalog price, that that may be a restraint of trade. Didn't Cusinart lose one at the Supreme Court 10-15 years back for requiring its vendors from discounting merchandise? Yes, BSA label sales may underwrite Headquarters activities and professional staffing costs, so as to keep "membership" fees down, but for an organization which relies (certainly at the local level) on volunteerism, and that the volunteers pay their own way, there should be accountablity and frugality at the Headquarters/leadership level. No one has yet responded to the allegation that BSA sent 83 people free of charge to the last World Jamboree, and whether those hundreds of thousands of dollars in costs are being replicated for Chile so that volunteers and Scouts are being asked to pay $4,000. But, back to uniforms. I do love wool, and I do love (high maintenance) linen, but poly-blends should be less expensive and maintenence (not-quite) free. Nevertheless, none of those (except wool in the winter) are as practical, and wickable, as polys in their various incarnations (like Polartec), and useful for serious modern camping. And, if BSA wants us to do backcountry hiking in a BSA product it had better follow the trends including things like quick-dry shorts with a built in supporter (sans undershorts); amend tradition because 1990's boys (and men) are larger than those in 1912 (ther neckerchief issue); and do a better job polling the people in the "trenches". YIS Jay Thal From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Tue Mar 24 12:44:42 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id MAA25507 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:44:42 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA11937 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 01:39:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0227; Tue, 24 Mar 98 00:39:08 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6091; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 00:33:35 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 4110 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 00:32:31 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4105; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 18:52:15 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Mon, 23 Mar 98 18:50:05 CDT Received: from comet.connix.com (comet.connix.com) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IV07P6GYJ400DFB8@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for Scouts-L@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:23:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [209.66.153.56] (1.ct1.dyn.connix.net [209.66.153.56]) by comet.connix.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23481 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:22:54 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: mgolrick@connix.com MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: <199803231822.NAA23481@comet.connix.com> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:28:09 -0500 Reply-To: "Michael A. Golrick" Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "Michael A. Golrick" Subject: Re: Uniforms X-To: Scouts-L Youth Group List To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Steve Featherkile wrote: [snip] > Just wanted to say that my long sleeve BSA Issue kacki shirt has done >quite well as a warm weather backpacking and canoeing shirt. >Granted, I probably would not wear it in the winter, but it has done yoeman >service.... [ship] >Could it be made more functional? Yes. And Robert Gerhard wrote: [snip] >That's exactly what I'd like! One uniform I can wear for everything! Why >not?? I can barely afford the one uniform now...I'm certainly not going to be >able to afford two uniforms if and when we get the BDUs! > ><< I must be built funny, because I personally don't have a problem with the >fit of the current uniform. >> [Alessi quote] > >Actually, I have no problem with the fit of the uniform, it's the >functionality that gets me. I understand the need for "thriftiness" (Scout Law #9), and I don't have a quarrel about the overall quality of the shirts. HOWEVER! They are not well tailored for many of us. I would die rathter than wear the uniform on a backpacking trek. First there are those epauletes binding under the backpack straps....and on and on. The pockets on the "new style" pant are problematic at best. I can keep stuff in them ONLY when I am standing up. Which is why I, and so many other adult scouters have our keys attached to our belts by various means. The long sleeve shirt is a disaster. I bought one slightly large in vain hopes that the sleeves would be decent. They are about 2 inches short of my wrist. Most of the time, I just roll them up one or two turns, which gets it above my elbow! And try to keep the darned thing tucked in!!!! Between the short waisted pants, and the short, square tails on the shirt, it is next to impossible. I feel like I need to re-tuck every time I stand up! Oh well, enough of this soap box. When my life is a little less hectic, I'll send a letter to the Cheif Scout, and see if that does indeed help! YIS Michael Golrick CC T 68, Trumbull CT From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Tue Mar 24 13:00:41 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA01956 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:00:41 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA14046 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 02:05:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0290; Tue, 24 Mar 98 01:05:08 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6644; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 00:57:12 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 6158 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 00:55:56 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6157; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 00:35:34 -0500 Received: from uxa.ecn.bgu.edu by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 24 Mar 98 00:35:31 CDT Received: from ecom2.ecnet.net (root@ecom2 [143.43.32.22]) by uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (8.8.2/8.8.2) with ESMTP id AAA11948 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 00:22:43 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by ecom2.ecnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA12476; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 00:22:39 -0600 (CST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Message-ID: <5f83e69b.35131f66@aol.com> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 21:01:08 EST Reply-To: RAGerhard Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: RAGerhard Subject: Re: Neckerchiefs, pants, and toilet paper To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 98-03-20, Bob Mayhew wrote: << I have several articles from the former-Soviet Union newspaper, "Pravda", which refer to the Boy Scouts of America as a paramilitary organization. Uniforms which include items such as battle dress uniform (BDU) pants would only reinforce their thinking. >> I seem to remember hearing of the BSA being protrayed as a paramilitary organization for many, many years by communist governments. It was, after all, the cold war and this was one more piece of propoganda used to reinforce the notion that the US was the great evil. IMO, uniforms which include BDUs could hardly look more paramilitary than the uniforms that allowed the Soviet government to draw and convincably argue the conclusion that we were paramilitary in the first place. Of course, this is biased by my own experiences trying to convince my friend that he could join Scouts because we weren't a paramilitary organization, despite his parent's objection that we dressed like soldiers. Out of curiosity, now that Scouting is being reborn in the former Soviet Union, I wonder what their uniforms look like... On a personal note, how's Tucson, Bob?? I am soooo envious.... Robert Gerhard Cubmaster & Webelos ADL BSA Pack 83, Ft. Worth, TX From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Sun Mar 22 23:00:38 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id XAA27112 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 23:00:38 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA10613 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:52:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8926; Sun, 22 Mar 98 21:52:46 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8270; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 21:54:03 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 3752 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 21:52:54 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3751; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 22:36:22 -0500 Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 20 Mar 98 22:36:06 CDT Received: from steve (1Cust71.tnt1.wenatchee.wa.da.uu.net [208.254.94.71]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA13766 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 20:34:14 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <351341F3.37A@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 20:28:35 -0800 Reply-To: Steven Featherkile Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Steven Featherkile Subject: Uniforms To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Hi all, There's been a lot of blather about uniforms, lately. Just wanted to say that my long sleeve BSA Issue kacki shirt has done quite well as a warm weather backpacking and canoeing shirt. Granted, I probably would not wear it in the winter, but it has done yoeman service in the outback of the Anza Borrego Desert in SOCAL and along the Colorado River. I expect it will again serve me well this summer when I canoe along the mighty Columbia River. Could it be made more functional? Yes. Could it be made longer wearing? That shirt is about 5 years old, and has been on the trail at least a weekend every month. I proudly wear it to show off it's scars, each of which evokes a memory. Steve Featherkile EA Post 319 DC Apple Valley District Wenatchee, WA From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Sun Mar 22 23:10:56 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id XAA29084 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 23:10:56 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA11168 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 23:03:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8947; Sun, 22 Mar 98 22:03:13 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8517; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:04:30 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 3426 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:03:31 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3425; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 19:29:52 -0500 Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 20 Mar 98 19:28:11 CDT Received: from RAGerhard@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id JTFNa02002 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 20:26:36 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Message-ID: <4d91e586.3513174e@aol.com> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 20:26:36 EST Reply-To: RAGerhard Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: RAGerhard Subject: Re: Toward a New Scout Uniform To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 98-03-20, Steve Featherkile wrote: << Wool is better than cotton. Looks better, is MUCH better in cold and wet conditions, holds up better. >> Great, so long as we can get a warm weather version. Who wants to wear wool when it's humid and 110 in the shade? Robert Gerhard Cubmaster & Webelos ADL BSA Pack 83, Ft. Worth, TX From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Mon Mar 23 09:41:08 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA27321 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:41:08 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA17299 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:33:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9360; Mon, 23 Mar 98 08:33:21 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1338; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:34:37 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 2204 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:33:39 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2201; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:27:57 -0500 Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR04 by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 20 Mar 98 12:26:28 CDT Received: from laptop - 206.206.184.242 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:21:36 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <06d1b3621181438UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:19:51 -0700 Reply-To: Mark Griffin Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Mark Griffin Subject: Re: Uniforming (Kybo Ken) X-To: Craig Brown To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Craig, While I agree with you about the uniform, etc. Supply Division's "excesses of revenues over expenses" that are put into the BSA's operating budget and Scout Shop income that is put into local councils, are why it only costs a boy $7.00 to be a Boy Scout or Cub Scout - and that is all that is REQUIRED to be a member and enjoy Scouting. Maybe not at the level of your son or my son who can afford more, but there are a lot of great Scouting units around in donated uniforms and equipment. A good creative leader can do a lot without a lot of money - and there are thousands that do. Without the income from supply division Scouting would be beyond the reach of a great many more young people because the joining fees would be so high. For instance, it cost me $35 to get my son into Little League last week - plus I will have to sell candy - plus I have to turn in the uniform at the end of the season - plus I have to buy a new glove and bat - plus it only lasts three months, etc. Now, having said that, there are a lot of improvements that can be made and communication (without the supply division and the BSA's leadership) is how it needs to be done. Boycotts and legal actions are only going to increase costs for those that cannot afford it. From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Sun Mar 22 23:09:42 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id XAA28765 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 23:09:42 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA11094 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 23:02:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8944; Sun, 22 Mar 98 22:02:00 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8487; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:03:17 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 3450 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:02:22 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3449; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 19:48:26 -0500 Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 20 Mar 98 19:48:23 CDT Received: from RAGerhard@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id JLAHa27633 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 20:46:47 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 20:46:47 EST Reply-To: RAGerhard Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: RAGerhard Subject: Re: Uniiforming To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: D In a message dated 98-03-20, Joseph A. Alessi writes: << I don't expect that we want one uniform that should be worn at meetings, courts of honor, backpacking at Philmont, on the road to and from camp, while building a pioneering tower, or while taking lifesaving merit badge >> That's exactly what I'd like! One uniform I can wear for everything! Why not?? I can barely afford the one uniform now...I'm certainly not going to be able to afford two uniforms if and when we get the BDUs! << I must be built funny, because I personally don't have a problem with the fit of the current uniform. >> Actually, I have no problem with the fit of the uniform, it's the functionality that gets me. Robert Gerhard Cubmaster & Webelos ADL BSA Pack 83, Ft. Worth, TX From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Sun Mar 22 23:12:06 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id XAA29240 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 23:12:06 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA11205 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 23:04:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8949; Sun, 22 Mar 98 22:04:21 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8548; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:05:39 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 3420 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:04:44 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3419; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 19:21:57 -0500 Received: from wilma.widomaker.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 20 Mar 98 19:21:52 CDT Received: from offpro.net [206.161.154.126] by wilma.widomaker.com with esmtp (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0yGCec-0000rD-00; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 20:00:55 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <351314B5.71AC0509@offpro.net> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 20:15:33 -0500 Reply-To: Rich Locke Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Rich Locke Organization: Office/PRO Technologies Subject: Re: Neckerchiefs, pants, and toilet paper To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: I love these threads on uniforming; they keep me from going to digest mode. A couple of thoughts....... 1. Doesn't it seem that folks are looking for alternatives to the official BSA pants because the National Council has been unresponsive in providing a reasonable design of decent quality ? That's one of the plusses (and minuses) of a volunteer organization - if the pros won't do it, we'll do it ourselves. 2. The Insignia Guide says: "Imitation of United States Army, Navy or Marine Corps uniforms is prohibited.....". Now, what does that mean? How do you explain Sea Scouts? and, I'm not talking about the twinky looking blue shorts and matching crew socks get up. My goodness, when I was a Sea Scout (year and year and years ago), we got our dress whites donated by the local Navy Reserve Center and then we sewed on Sea Scout insignia. I'll admit to being somewhat anal retentive about uniforming, but the last time I had to huff and squeeze into my long uniform pants, well... the O.D. BDU's are starting to look pretty good. Anyway, back to the Sea Scouts, er, Sea Explorers. Since all of the other government associated exploring programs are going to LfL, shouldn't Sea Exploring go to LfL? I mean look, they wear those military looking uniforms and all...... Rich Locke Advisor?? Post??486 (I've been informed that computing is not necessarily a career field but could also be considered a hobby. Computer Venturing. hmmmm) Williamsburg, VA From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Mon Mar 23 09:15:51 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id JAA20990 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:15:51 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9313; Mon, 23 Mar 98 08:08:11 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0815; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:09:28 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 0337 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:08:34 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0336; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:24:37 -0500 Approved-By: EIDSON@TCUBVM Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0956; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:40:00 -0500 Received: from mailhost.lanl.gov by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 20 Mar 98 09:39:56 CDT Received: from 941955.lanl.gov ([128.165.159.234]) by mailhost.lanl.gov (8.8.8/(cic-5, 10/28/97)) with SMTP id IAA29594 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 08:36:55 -0700 (MST) X-Sender: u074932@pobox1663.lanl.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980320083655.007cf680@pobox1663.lanl.gov> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 08:36:55 -0700 Reply-To: "James F. Van Hecke Jr." Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "James F. Van Hecke Jr." Subject: Re: Neckerchiefs, pants, and toilet paper To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <19980320143014743.AAA78@hercules> Status: RO X-Status: >>Subject: Re: Uniforms I think we may have lost sight of the fact that, except for Exploring Units, the BSA does not offer units the option of selecting what they will consider to be their "official" uniform. What you choose to wear while camping, etc. is up to you, but the official uniform of the BSA is not. I think it is a disservice to give youth the idea that if you don't like the rules, regulations, official uniforms, etc., that you can just choose not to follow them, or select something that is more personally acceptable. If you don't like the uniform, that is OK (I hate the shorts, and miss the cargo pockets), but the way to get it changed is through communication with the National Office, not by every unit choosing something that is acceptable to the majority of their membership at that moment. If you get a number of these units together at the same time, it would look like the rainbow squad from you-know-where.
Jim Van Hecke - I used to be an Owl, and I'll always be an Eagle Council Camping Chairman, Great Southwest Council, Albuquerque, NM Kshippehellen Kitchkinet - Swift Current Guide
jvanhecke@lanl.gov OR jvh2099@aol.com From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Wed Mar 25 02:59:21 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id CAA09379 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 02:59:21 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1115; Wed, 25 Mar 98 01:51:19 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0539; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 01:52:29 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 9604 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 01:51:52 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9603; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:27:07 -0500 Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 24 Mar 98 21:27:03 CDT Received: from Morrisonch@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id JJOBa19599 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 22:25:02 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 18 Message-ID: <45a4c6e1.35187910@aol.com> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 22:25:02 EST Reply-To: Morrisonch Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Morrisonch Subject: Re: Uniforming To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 98-03-24 01:23:19 EST, Larry wrote: << Someone pointed out in another response to this thread that B-P didn't live/hike/camp in places like the US Gulf Coast...to which you could add the Mojave Desert, the High Sierra, Minnesota in summer or winter, etc., etc. The point is that climate and other conditions vary tremendously around this great land of ours, both with geography and time of year. We probably also engage in a greater range of activities than Scouts did in the good old days. >> Actually, B-P lived, hiked, and camped in lots of places all over the world - India, Africa, Bosnia, to name a few. These are places which can be very hot and humid. He undoubtedly knew what to wear within the limits of what was available to him in his day. YinS, Charlie Morrison Fort Benning (GA) District MC Troop 27 SA (New Scouts) NE-IV-90 Fox morrisonch@aol.com From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Wed Mar 25 03:00:20 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id DAA09446 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 03:00:20 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1117; Wed, 25 Mar 98 01:52:19 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0564; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 01:53:25 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 9246 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 01:52:40 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9245; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 19:40:36 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 24 Mar 98 19:40:18 CDT Received: from mail.scouter.net (bp.SCOUTER.com) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IV217UWMGW00DRGK@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for scouts-l@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 19:38:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from buffnet.buffnet.net [205.247.124.181] by mail.scouter.net (SMTPD32-4.03) id AE7A8D500E8; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 19:31:38 CST6CDT X-Sender: rick@scouter.net MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980324203556.007d33f0@scouter.net> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 20:35:56 -0500 Reply-To: Rick Seymour Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Rick Seymour Subject: Re: Uniforming X-To: scouts-l@tcu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: I apologize to those who received this before, but this post was not distributed to everyone on the list: >At 12:22 PM 3/19/98, Dale Karweik wrote: >> ...these are all things we teach our Scouts and Scouters for=20 >> hiking, camping and backpacking. Why don't our uniforms=20 >> reflect this? I agree - too many decisions are made in air=20 >> conditioned offices. No backpacker would ever have=20 >> designed those brillo pad waist band shorts. At 10:20 PM 3/19/98 -0500, Branden Morris wrote: > Comments like this always make me ask, "Is the uniform=20 > designed to be used as a practical, working uniform, or a=20 > dressier, ceremonial uniform?" I'd submit that the uniform isn't=20 > intended to be used as expedition-quality gear. Brandon,=20 Granted that the uniform isn=92t intended as expedition-quality gear, but it has always been meant to be used in the outdoors as a =20 Method of our program. Of all the places Scouts need to be reminded that they are Scouts, the outdoors is the most important. That is where Scouting takes place, after all.=20 The Handbooks says "Wearing a uniform is part of the thrill of=20 being a Scout. Put on your uniform and you feel ready for hiking,=20 camping, and other Scout activities." =20 The instructions that appear in the current Handbook are still in=20 William Hillcourt=92s words from the Ninth Edition: "Wearing your Scout Uniform. Wear your complete uniform proudly and correctly at all Scouting events: * At Patrol and Troop meetings, hikes, camps, and rallies=85. (etc.)" > For the intended purposes in support of the aims of Scouting as a=20 > method of Scouting, the uniform serves its purposes well. Either the Uniform is a Method or it isn=92t. If we can=92t wear it safely for all the good reasons that you stated, then it does not serve its purposes well. The BSA sells millions of these things, and I=92m sure that their volume is larger than many of the "big name" outfitters that we both are forced to use. The Uniform costs as much as good quality American-made clothing. They could do better. =20 Yours in Scouting, Rick Seymour Troop 252 Buffalo, NY From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Wed Mar 25 03:20:21 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id DAA10223 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 03:20:21 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1145; Wed, 25 Mar 98 02:12:14 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0878; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 02:09:14 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 8738 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 02:08:10 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8737; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:34:41 -0500 Received: from ds9.camcare.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 24 Mar 98 14:32:41 CDT Received: by DS9 with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:28:13 -0500 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: <2B3ABA2F850AD011937D0000C00700D0E959CC@KES> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:27:33 -0500 Reply-To: "Sands, Vic" Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "Sands, Vic" Subject: Uniform To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: I am not sure what all of the fuss is about the uniform. The uniform is the uniform, period. What you choose to allow in your unit is up to you, but you can't call it uniform. But that is not my point. My point follows; Several years ago, we started a troop in a very economically depressed area of West Virginia. The unit only required that a boy have a official shirt. In this way he could display his rank. Even at that, we still had to buy a couple of boys shirts and pay a couple of registrations. The Chartering Organization agreed to pay for handbooks and rank badges for the first two years, but the boys worked and paid for everything else. I'll admit, we didn't look as official as some other troops, with our "half-uniforms" and rag-tag camping equipment, but at camporees, we brought home the blue ribbons and spirit awards. Over the years the boys upgraded and built better equipment and donated their old equipment to another troop that was just getting started. Of the orignial 15, 11-yr olds we started with, it was my pleasure to pin the Eagle on two of them, and you know what; they both showed up at their Court of Honor with a complete inspection-ready offical uniform. Haven't seen them in it since, but you can watch them as they live their lives and tell that they are Eagles. If you are going to argue on this forum, pick something worthwhile. From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Wed Mar 25 03:24:14 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id DAA10372 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 03:24:14 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1151; Wed, 25 Mar 98 02:16:04 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0955; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 02:12:56 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 8718 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 02:11:48 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8717; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:25:47 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 24 Mar 98 14:23:45 CDT Received: from LuciaDiLammermoor.acsu.buffalo.edu by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IV1Q637ZSW00DYJL@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for Scouts-L@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:22:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 10149 invoked by uid 20116); Tue, 24 Mar 1998 20:22:04 +0000 MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980324202204.10148.qmail@LuciaDiLammermoor.acsu.buffalo.edu> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:22:04 -0500 Reply-To: Don Izard Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Don Izard Subject: The fomer "activity" uniform ???? X-To: Scouts-L@tcu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: As we on the list battle over the current official / practical uniform issues, I remind you of MY favorite, almost worn thru "BSA activity UNIFORM" shorts! I paid $10 I think, at the 1993 Jambo. After a few years field testing a great pair of "activity shorts" the BSA killed the idea. They were, at least for me, a great pair of shorts. Good for camping, had snap pockets etc., had good fit, with some elastics etc., and for ME wore very well, as compared to the OD/green shorts. It seemed to me that with the activity uniforms, that BSA accepted the fact that the "dress" or "field" uniform was not that good for being in the field, or camping, canoeing, hiking etc. Same for a wonderful hat that was field tested at Philmont in late 80's early 90's, and was more like the old army jungle hats, single od green color. Kept the sun off ears and neck, well vented and dried well, and was crushable. What more would you want for a trail hat? And at a reasonable price, not like the current brown felt hat. But alas, those field tests failed I guess. Maybe they did not wear well in the air conditioned offices :) When I was a coed explorer advisor in Tranatlantic council the Post created their OWN unique uniforms. More like a school drill team, with nylon jackets with embrodered emblems that had a meaning to that unit and those members. They really showed pride, and wore the jacketts ALL the time, not just to meetings. Maybe is scouts had the same options, they would have a person pride of ownership in what they wore to a scout meeting? Ah well, time to figure out what we can do to fix it and make it better. I just needed to remember the good old days for a minute. Time to go checkout http://www.sportsmansguide.com/catalog/ scouter don From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Wed Mar 25 03:30:28 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id DAA10602 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 03:30:28 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1163; Wed, 25 Mar 98 02:22:10 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1103; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 02:19:39 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 8498 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 02:18:43 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8497; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:47:26 -0500 Received: from spot.Colorado.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 24 Mar 98 12:43:29 CDT Received: from localhost (amick@localhost) by spot.Colorado.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p) with SMTP id LAA08837; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:41:58 -0700 (MST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:41:57 -0700 Reply-To: Amick Robert Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Amick Robert Subject: Re: Toward a New Scout Uniform To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <199803231742.MAA25895@camel8.mindspring.com> Status: RO X-Status: There are some drawbacks involving maintenance for wool uniforms, because many of them require dry cleaning which gets expensive, or those that can be successfully laundered are usually wool-synthetic blends. Shrinkage with laundering is also a problem with wool. Wool also tends to hold odors a bit more than cotton or polyester blends, so that could also be an issue requiring more frequent cleaning/laundering. And of course there is the concern that some folks react to wool fabrics and have to wear something in between the wool and their skin, which becomes too much insulation in warm weather. Most police officers are given a uniform allowance to compensate for the initially high purchase and maintenance costs of the uniforms (dry cleaning, replacement, repair, sewing insignia, etc) which Scouts and Scouters of course are not. However, wool and wool blends do look very sharp. Some public safety uniforms are made of rayon and polyester rather than wool, which also tends to look good; high polyester content fabric tends to "pearl" with little fabric fuzzies, so using a low or different synthetic fabric blend may be desirable. The main reason that public safety uniforms look good is not only their high quality fabric but most of all their tailoring. Some officers have custom tailored uniforms, but even those that are "off the shelf" are still well designed and cut, and they are more expensive because of the labor involved in their fabrication. Bob Amick, Explorer Advisor, High Adventure Explorer Post 72/SES 72, Boulder, CO. On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, Bruce E. Cobern wrote: > ...but I'd really be curious about what the uniforms of some > of the various police departments in that part of the country are made out > of, particularly the sharper looking of them, most likely the state > police. From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Wed Mar 25 03:39:11 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id DAA11083 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 03:39:11 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1176; Wed, 25 Mar 98 02:30:49 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1260; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 02:26:57 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 8163 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 02:25:49 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8162; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 10:40:21 -0500 Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 24 Mar 98 10:40:16 CDT Received: from Achgegetum@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id VIIa027632 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:37:15 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 18 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:37:15 EST Reply-To: Achgegetum Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Achgegetum Subject: Uniforms, etc. cost To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: At the '85 National Jamboree, I was told by a retired Professional Scouter that the bulk of the retirement dollars for Professional Scouters comes from the surplus dollars (profit?) of the supply division. I have never seen this in print, however, and it may not be true. In any case, since the Supply Divison is the major source of income for National, is it surprising that "Official Scout" items are what they are compared to items of similar QUALITY on the open market? The difference is clear whether you compare patches, shirts, cooking gear, tents, or freeze-dried food. This is not ment to evaluate National's retirement plan, just a possible explination of why a lot of us find better value ( quality for the price) elsewhere. YIS Rex Cole, Achgegetum@aol.com Des Plaines Valley Council, IL From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Thu Mar 26 02:07:00 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id CAA13266 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 02:07:00 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA15567 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 01:59:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2080; Thu, 26 Mar 98 00:58:16 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5875; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 00:52:41 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 2704 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 00:51:37 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2703; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:29:02 -0500 Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 25 Mar 98 10:28:49 CDT Received: from NeilLup@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 2AEFa07817; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:20:04 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 82 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:20:04 EST Reply-To: NeilLup Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: NeilLup Subject: Re: Toward a New Scout Uniform X-To: amick@SPOT.COLORADO.EDU, Scouts-L@tcu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 3/25/98 3:20:56 AM, amick@SPOT.COLORADO.EDU wrote: <> I can concur with this. When a unit of the Massachusetts State Police changed their uniform design, they donated their old uniforms to one of our Police Explorer Posts(with insignia removed so they did not look official). Regrettably, without individualized tailoring, they looked about the same as our typical Scout uniforms. Neil Lupton From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Sun Mar 29 13:44:24 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id NAA12782 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 13:44:24 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4126; Sun, 29 Mar 98 12:36:31 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7420; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 12:37:51 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 6246 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 12:36:15 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6245; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 23:43:41 -0500 Received: from mail.scouter.net by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Sat, 28 Mar 98 23:43:37 CDT Received: from buffnet.buffnet.net [205.246.19.128] by mail.scouter.net (SMTPD32-4.03) id AD7F17610154; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 23:34:55 CST6CDT X-Sender: rick@scouter.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) References: <01IV3OR5DUMA00DSPV@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980329003835.007d4300@scouter.net> Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 00:38:35 -0500 Reply-To: Rick Seymour Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Rick Seymour Subject: Re: Uniforming by Rick Seymour X-To: The Hammons family X-cc: centaur@bluemoon.net To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <351A923A.6E7@lausd.k12.ca.us> Status: RO X-Status: Phil Hammons writes: > May I make a humble suggestion? If the scout uniform of today > had evolved the way the military uniforms have ( Material, > Design), we might not be having this discusion. Phil, I m not sure I understand what you mean. I looked at BDUs today and noticed that they all had cotton. The army doesn t seem to be much better than the BSA at designing a safe uniform. > The uniforms of B/P's time were one uniform for all times No, B-P took careful notes in all of the different parts of the world in which he was stationed. His was very concerned with what was practical dress for each different environment. His first Boy Scout Uniform was based largely on the uniform he designed for his South African Constables, as well as his uniform at Mafeking, since the later was tied to the image people had of him based on the portraits in the newspapers at the time he became a famous soldier. It is how they expected him to look. At any rate, his chief concerns in designing the Scout Uniform were comfort, practicality, and the pride and joy of the boys wearing them. It was never his intention to use the Uniform to teach boys how to "follow orders," or to wear an ugly, unsafe, and uncomfortable Uniform as some sort of testimony of their steadfastness in defending values unpopular with their peers. > but now there are Class A, Class B and BDUs. No, there is only one official BSA Uniform, with winter and summer variations. We are considering a Troop "activity uniform" consisting of non-cotton olive BDUs and maybe the poly-cotton Scout shirt. Another possibility would be to make "Scout shirts" out of a tan nylon material for use in the wild and call them "patch blankets," but I haven t run the idea past the Uniform police yet. > Why, because it solves problems and deals with specific conditions. The official Uniform does not solve problems, it creates them. It does not deal with any specific condition other than air-conditioned offices in Texas, and I ll bet they don t even wear them there. > Are you going to wear the Scout Uniform Canoeing or Kayaking > or Small Boat sailing? What Percentage of the souts are going to > treat for hypothermia? Yes, I want a summer Uniform for all of the above, plus swimming. I ve seen nylon water-sport shorts with a reinforced butt for sliding down wet rocks, even. It should have lots of pockets, and be practical for land use. A non-cotton Uniform top with plenty of room would be a nice touch for after we get out the water. > Are you going to wear it Rockclimbing at Joshua Tree National > Park? I haven t done that much rock climbing. Most of what I ve done entailed keeping my body away from the face of the rock for better leverage. My guess is that reinforcing the Uniform in key areas to make it practical for most Scout rock climbing would be useful for other applications as well, but may not be necessary. I d like to hear from a climber or COPE person on this issue. > Who pays for the replacement uniforms? Who pays $20 for an official "activity" shirt? Those who do might consider an alternative "high adventure" Scout shirt that looks like a "Class A" but is made from better material. The cost should be the same as the Uniform shirt plus the activity shirt for the same net price. One Scouter reminded me that most of us end up paying for a second set of clothes for high-adventure, anyway. There is no need to replace a torn Uniform, just mend it and keep it clean. No real Scout would show up to a Court of Honor in a Uniform that hasn t been ripped and mended a few times anyway. > Do you wear it on your Ski trips? Get real, Frozen Scouts are not > a delicasy An official non-cotton BDU-style Scout pant could fit over polar fleece to act as wind and warmth barriers, no problem. I ve even worn a large pair of Scout pants over Gortex bib-pants when staffing SMF! > Activity Shirts, Yeaman. Any T-shirt with the BSA logo? Go > for it, but for God's sake, use a little common sense. We need common sense in the design stage of the Uniform. > You make boys wear the scout uniform on a Brush Clearance > or Trail Rebuilding project and the parents will either take their > Kid away or (better choice ) toos you out on your ear. I ve worn my Scout Uniform to do both. I don t see the advantage of using the over-priced "activity" shirt as pictured in the Handbook. There is nothing wrong with a little pine pitch on your sleeve. The present Scout Handbook places little value on the Uniform, if you study the photographs. Through most of the history of Scouting, Scouts have always been pictured wearing their Uniforms for the kinds of projects that you mention. As for parents, they know that our Troop is a high adventure Troop. They don t expect their son s Uniform to look new for long. > Experience has already taught us that it takes training to remind > the boys and THEIR LEADERS that they are scouts in the outdoors > and no amount of wearing the uniform can make up for that. I think you are wrong. Just wearing the Uniform can make a difference in a Scout s behavior. If they are not wearing it, how can you call your boys Scouts? The Handbook says that the Uniform should be worn at ALL Scout activities. The Uniform reinforces many of the other Methods of Scouting: Advancement, Leadership Development, Adult Role Models, Ideals, and serves as a constant reminder that Scouting takes place in the Outdoors. Either you use the Uniform as a Method, or you don t. If you do believe in the importance of wearing the Uniform at all times, then you know that it is very poorly designed, and not worthy of our Scouts. Yours in Scouting, Rick Seymour From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Mon Mar 30 10:09:42 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA21634 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:09:42 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA17737 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 09:02:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4397; Mon, 30 Mar 98 08:01:44 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9494; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 08:02:58 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 9485 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 08:01:54 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9484; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 08:01:53 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Mon, 30 Mar 98 08:01:50 CDT Received: from mail.enter.net (mail.enter.net) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IV9QKRVP3K00EIVY@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for Scouts-L@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 08:00:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 204.170.16.42 (m40atwn-1-32.enter.net [204.170.16.42]) by mail.enter.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA17757 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 09:00:08 -0500 (EST) MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <351F5F16.7AF7@enter.net> Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 09:00:05 +0000 Reply-To: "Donald W. Miles" Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "Donald W. Miles" Organization: Attorney Subject: Re: Uniform redesign X-To: Scouts-L@tcu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Chuck May wrote: >>For summer camp here in the mid-atlantic humidity, give me cotton<< >>every time over the "modern" fabrics.<< I'm new to this uniform thread but I have to side with Rick Seymour on this one: cotton is a lousy outdoor shirt fabric for ANY climate. We here in PA yield to no one on the oppressiveness of our summer humidity and cotton shirts, once sweaty, are not comfortable in the steam. As a long-time runner and backpacker before I was a Scoutmaster, I think synthetics designed for hot weather, like Dupont's CoolMax, are lighter, breathe better, and wick away the moisture cotton retains. CoolMax sure worked great for us at Philmont. And in cool/cold weather, cotton is a deadly hypothermia machine when damp (ever seen a dry Scout after a couple of hours on the trail ?) That's why you'll see most wilderness guides, NOLS, Outward Bound, etc. wearing synthetics. Maybe cotton is OK on guided missle cruisers but it's not so good on the Appalachian Trail. Our dear ol' current Scout Uniform shirt is an anachronism, but at least its synthetic. Cotton is for lounging on the patio and for "sports" where you don't sweat, like golf. How many down at th Irving office do you think hit the trail regularly with Scouts and how often do you think they do so wearing their over-priced anachronisms in that Texas swelter ? (I, too, would prefer the old lightweight'60's-style collarless shirt, updated with a modern synthetic like CoolMax.) -- Don Miles ASM Troop 318 (SM '93-'97), Bethlehem, PA Minsi Trails Council '97 and '98 Junior Leader Training Course Director "I used to be a Fox . . . " From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Mon Mar 30 14:40:17 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id OAA16839 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:40:17 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA11429 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:32:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4653; Mon, 30 Mar 98 13:31:34 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1407; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:32:12 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 1381 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:29:25 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1379; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:27:01 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Mon, 30 Mar 98 13:24:46 CDT Received: from mail.scouter.net (bp.SCOUTER.com) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IVA1TBMEYO00DWK5@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for scouts-l@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:22:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from buffnet.buffnet.net [205.246.19.218] by mail.scouter.net (SMTPD32-4.03) id AF4A1FD5004A; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:15:22 CST6CDT X-Sender: rick@scouter.net MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980330142001.007f9a10@scouter.net> Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:20:01 -0500 Reply-To: Rick Seymour Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Rick Seymour Subject: Re: Uniform Redesign: Safety First! X-To: cmay01@INTERSERV.COM X-cc: scouts-l@tcu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: D Chuck May writes: > I'm new to this thread, so please forgive me if this has already= =20 > been covered, but what do you mean by "non-cotton"? Chuck, Welcome to the thread! Not much has been offered yet as a safe alternative to the current Uniform. Most of the commentary =66rom the High Adventure experts on this list has centered on the high maintenance aspect of natural fiber alternatives such as wool.= =20 By "non-cotton" I mean fibers that will not contribute to=20 hypothermia to the degree that cotton will. It is my understanding that cotton blends are not as bad as cotton, but are still a threat t= o safety. I still don=92t understand how the army gets around this= =20 problem, and would like to hear more from the "army brats". I have suggested nylon, since most of my comfortable "high-tech" shorts say "100% Nylon." These shorts are designed to be worn for rafting and swimming, and have nice features such as clips for your keys, and zippered pockets. They also have a mesh liner like swimsuits, but it is not itchy for some reason. These shorts do not look like swimming apparel, and can be worn all week at summer camp or in the wilderness. They would serve as a perfect model for useful Scout shorts. =20 I have also seen full length versions with zippers just above the= =20 knee. These can be easily converted from shorts to pants without changing clothes, which would be a great advantage for spring and fall hikes, as well as for warming up after a swim or adjusting to= =20 the wind-chill at the summit when mountain climbing. Such a=20 design would mean that a Scout would not have to pay for separate Scout pants, Scout shorts, activity shorts, and swim suits. It could also be used as a wind shell in the winter. =20 > The emphasis on cotton in today's military uniforms is an issue > of heat and fire safety. In the late 1970s and 1980s, the Naval= =20 > Safety Center became concerned over the number of incidents=20 > in which sailors' polyester uniforms seemed to be aggravating,=20 > or even causing, injury in high heat situations, as the polyester= =20 > melted and clung to the skin. After extensive research and field= =20 > studies, they banned polyester for shipboard wear, and went back= =20 > to cotton and/or wool blends. I was not aware of that. I am surprised, however, that extensive research would lead back to cotton blends, given the resources of= =20 the military. =20 Polyester has other disadvantages, if you want a Uniform that is sharp-looking. The polyester boogers that crop up after a few washings are unsightly, and most polyester colors are ghastly. =20 > I, for one, think that we can learn a lot from the research done > on military field uniforms, which are designed for extended=20 > wear in the toughest of field conditions. Note that I am saying > "learn from", not "copy". The roomy fit, ample pockets, roll- > able sleeves, ability to blouse the trousers for tick protection, > and reinforced stress-points are all ideal for our environment. I agree, why reinvent the wheel? > In many environments, I have found cotton to be rugged,=20 > cheap, comfortable, and repairable. Above all for an activity=20 > uniform, it breathes.=20 Now that I have cut the collar off my cotton Scout shirt (please don=92t report me to the Uniform police), it is very comfortable and sharp-looking with the neckerchief. I always bring it along in the woods and I wear it when it won=92t get damp. I love it. = =20 However, neither it nor the poly-blend version work as an=20 activity uniform for me. I try to wear a full official Uniform=20 even when back-packing, but they quickly become drenched with sweat and never dry out. Cotton Scout socks, of course, are blister-machines. Yours in Scouting, Rick Seymour Troop 252 Buffalo, NY From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Tue Mar 31 09:36:45 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA03425 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:36:45 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA23383 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:28:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5151; Tue, 31 Mar 98 08:28:16 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5849; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 08:28:36 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 5818 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 08:27:13 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5817; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 08:26:39 -0500 Approved-By: EIDSON@TCUBVM Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3559; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 22:43:14 -0500 Received: from smtp2.erols.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Mon, 30 Mar 98 22:43:11 CDT Received: from jburns.erols.com (207-172-74-194.s3.as8.man.erols.com [207.172.74.194]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA00165; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:40:09 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-DH397 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <351F5F16.7AF7@enter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <35207227.6B88@erols.com> Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:33:43 -0500 Reply-To: Joe Burns Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Joe Burns Subject: Re: Uniform redesign X-To: "Donald W. Miles" To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Donald W. Miles wrote: > > Chuck May wrote: > > >>For summer camp here in the mid-atlantic humidity, give me cotton<< > >>every time over the "modern" fabrics.<< > > I'm new to this uniform thread but I have to side with Rick Seymour on > this one: cotton is a lousy outdoor shirt fabric for ANY climate. We > here in PA yield to no one on the oppressiveness of our summer humidity > and cotton shirts, once sweaty, are not comfortable in the steam. As a long time EMT in both the city and the back country, I would rather deal with an individual who came into contact with a fire while wearing cotton than some one wearing one of those miracle plastics that continue to melt into and through the flesh after the source of ignition is removed. Sorry guys, but as long as I am taking 11 - 16 year old boys into the back country I am going to continue to recommend cotton for wear in camp. At least you can change a wet shirt, It's hard to change melted skin. Joe Burns ASM T-1182 The new Bull Run District, NCAC From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Tue Mar 31 10:12:02 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA11881 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:12:02 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA26095 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:04:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5185; Tue, 31 Mar 98 09:03:59 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6061; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:05:03 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 6050 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:02:08 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6049; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:02:07 -0500 Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 31 Mar 98 09:00:28 CDT Received: from Achgegetum@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id JPAWa02886 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:57:42 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 18 Message-ID: <62f5cef6.35210467@aol.com> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:57:42 EST Reply-To: Achgegetum Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Achgegetum Subject: Uniforms-Safety First To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Safety should certainly be a major consideration in uniform material. It was previously mentioned that the Navy returned to cotten & wool for reasons of flammibility. Have you seen the speed of the melting/ burning of current Scout uniforms? A Scout shirt goes up in less than 2 minutes--all that's left are the patches. Hopefully, a blend will be found which will be safe, insulate when wet, and still look sharp without ironing. YIS Rex Cole, Achgegetum@aol.com Des Plaines Valley Council, IL From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Tue Mar 31 10:26:06 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA15259 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:26:06 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA26919 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:18:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5200; Tue, 31 Mar 98 09:18:00 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6166; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:18:38 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 6089 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:15:50 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6088; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:07:56 -0500 Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 31 Mar 98 09:07:25 CDT Received: from CoopWright@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id VUHMa03579; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:05:17 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Message-ID: <26cca543.3521062f@aol.com> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:05:17 EST Reply-To: CoopWright Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: CoopWright Subject: Re: Uniform redesign X-To: jburns@EROLS.COM To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Joe I recognize your past experience as an EMT gives you a better background than I have. However, if you read the material now put out in Philmont's Guidebook to Adventure" and other publications from recognized authorities such as Outward Bound and the National Outdoor Leadership School concerning backcountry clothing, you will see that they are getting away from cotton. I would also venture to say, although I don't have any figures to back this up, that the number of incidents of hypothermia greatly exceed those of scout who are burned so badly that the plastic fiber melts to their skin. I have never been on an outing where we have had an accident like this. However, I have been on too many troop outings where boys have been in trouble because they became wet while wearing cotton denim blue jeans, cotton t-shirts and sweat shirts instead of a good set of polypro long underwear and fleece jacket. I guess if you have a car, you can drive him home (we've done that too many times). Cooper Wright ASM-Venture, Troop 1519 Alexandria, VA From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Wed Apr 1 14:05:36 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id OAA16716 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:05:36 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6117; Wed, 01 Apr 98 10:31:45 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1866; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:30:43 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 8619 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:29:45 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8618; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 19:21:34 -0500 Approved-By: EIDSON@TCUBVM Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7426; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:58:55 -0500 Received: from mail1.infinet.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 31 Mar 98 13:58:50 CDT Received: from default (nwk-pm3-1-a041.infinet.com [208.137.27.41]) by mail1.infinet.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA06056; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:55:21 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: shoar@infinet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) References: <351F9C38.8EB47F64@cybertours.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980331145825.0082f810@infinet.com> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:58:25 -0500 Reply-To: Steve Hoar Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Steve Hoar Subject: Boy Scout uniform - Long-Soapbox X-To: Kevin McClelland To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <35207A05.56E0@erols.com> Status: RO X-Status: >Their are certain times when a uniform needs to be worn, such as Courts >of Honor or Boards of Review, etc. At a troop meeting, I personally have >no problem as long as the scouts are wearing a scouting related T-shirt. > >I guess my question is, What's the big deal? > Kevin Much of what scouting does has to do with building team spirit. Using the team analogy, take a look around at sports and other group activities where the uniform builds team identity and helps build pride in the organization. It harkens back to an old shaving commercial where the phrase 'look sharp, feel sharp, be sharp' was the key phrase. I am sure that most of the parents out there have coached youth sports at one time or another, did we not expect them to wear the uniform to the 'meetings' (Games). What is wrong with having the same expectation at the scout 'games' (meetings)! Not to model ourselves after gangs, but even they take pride in their 'uniforms'. Next time you go to the hospital take a look at the 'uniforms' which help identify who they are and what they do. Policemen, firemen, and even your dentist wears a uniform. Even folks working at an office or a construction site wear an official or unofficial uniform. Look at the uniform of the young teen male today...baggy low hanging trousers and at least one pierced ear. The uniforms within the troop help the boys identify what they are a part of. If they are out of uniform they are little more than a bunch of kids hanging around together. They will not see themselves as scouts. The uniforms help remind them who they are and what they are about. It reminds them and their leaders that they are Scouts. In all of this the most potent influence is the example set by the leaders, the adults. If the adults find any and every excuse not to wear the uniform, then the boys will not wear theirs. If the adults fail to wear the uniforms then I would hesitate to call them the leaders. They might be fine organizers and managers but certainly not leaders. (Or it could be that until they come out with spandex adult shirts, some scoutmasters will be unable to wear the scout shirt.) I am amused by the comment that some folks don't like the colors or the designs of the uniforms yet these same folks will wear some mighty strange looking clothes while they or their sports teams play sports. Somehow one set of unusual is OK but the other is not OK. Of the two, I would think that the scout uniform is the least unusual uniform you could wear. What's the big deal? Anything worth doing is worth doing well. If we aim for the average or just enough to get by, then that is all we will do or be able to do with ourselves, our troop, or our lives. If we aim to excel, to be the best that we can be, than that will be reflected in ourselves, our troop ,and our lives. It has been my observation that folks tend to be consistent throughout their lives. They tend to live to the same standards at work as they do at home and in their personal lives. If they have high standards at school, work, and outside the home, they tend to have them throughout their whole life. If they have mediocre standards at work and home, they carry over to their whole life. Somehow I feel that we owe to ourselves and our scouts to set our standard higher than mediocre. Soapbox off, time to go outside and enjoy the beauty of the day. Stephen M. Hoar mailto:shoar@infinet.com Newark Ohio From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Wed Apr 1 20:11:59 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id UAA25538 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:11:59 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6131; Wed, 01 Apr 98 10:38:50 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2053; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:39:27 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 7903 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:38:46 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7902; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 15:42:03 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 31 Mar 98 15:40:13 CDT Received: from hil-img-10.compuserve.com (hil-img-10.compuserve.com) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IVBKT514R400DPX9@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for SCOUTS-L@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 15:36:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by hil-img-10.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.10) id QAA12646 for SCOUTS-L@TCU.EDU; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:36:46 -0500 (EST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <199803311636_MC2-3888-F517@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:36:25 -0500 Reply-To: Joseph Alessi Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Joseph Alessi Subject: Uniforming Survey Text Comments (Long!) X-To: Scouts-L Mail List To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Here's the comments that people submitted with their survey. Our troop's pictures were featured in the Scouting Oct 95 artictle on Pimaree 3 out or 4 US Scout pictures all the Mexican's were in my troop) even though we were out of council. Reason good uniforming. Right now we have 80 boys and 60 registered adults. We are a small, urban troop. We have many scouts from single parent families. We maintain a uniform bank - and many of our leaders buy scout shirts at flea markets, garage sales and second hand stores for $1-4. These are then given when larger boys don't fit into the smaller uniforms - with the understanding that they will return them when they no longer fit..... It works okay. The pants seem to be the hardest thing to keep in supply - so shorts get worn a lot. But, in California that isn't too bad We encourage uniform use at all functions unless the activity is one that would damage it. Wide games, painting projects etc We wear full uniforms only when it is formal, and even then it is difficult to get all of them to wear it. Uniforms should be more "all weather friendly", or as much as possible with the varying climates. The uniform should be something Scouts want to wear, not be forced to wear. The use of full field uniform is what is requested at those times indicated, but doesn't always happen. Many times only a tan shirt is achieved. We ecourage Scouts to wear our troop t-shirt during summer camp meals and on campouts but this is not required. Due to the heat in this part of the country, the only time that most camps ask for the full uniform is at retreat. And most troops only wear the shirt with jeans, shorts, etc. For the past 3 years, we have required the shorts or trousers during summer camp retreat as the boys look so much better when compared to other troops. Well, here's the norm in our troop. I'd like to see us do better, but this is how it stands at the moment. You'll note that we never require BSA pants. Uniform is important for scout spirit, patrol spirit and troop spirit. We are a troop that has always had a large number of lower income families, and so only requires the shirt. Those that wish to wear the pants (about 20%) are encouraged to do so. As you can see, we want the Scouts wearing the uniform at all troop meetings. When it comes to activities, we are much more lenient. We have not done any parades, but we would require full uniform then, too. In regards to Boards of Review: the troop committee set the standard of 100% full uniform for ALL BofR. In fact, we have one Scout who has been delayed for MONTHS for he refuses to buy Scout pants/shorts. He comes to meetings in Scout shirt and blue jeans with massive holes in the knees. He is aware of the policy and has agreed to wait. So it is now up to him. Eagle BofR are also in my area of influence as District Advancement Chairman. I require the Scout to be in full uniform and I also request that ALL members of the Board wear the uniform properly, too, if they have one, that is. We require a full Scout uniform at most functions, if the Scout can afford it. If the Scout cannot afford it, then he IS required to have a Class "A" shirt with all patches, but is not required to have the official Scout pants. He is required, however, to wear decent-looking pants, not holey, or about to fall off. We encourage boys to wear full uniform but there's only a couple who have the pants. Most all of the boys in this troop wear their uniforms. Also they are not allowed to travel unless in full (socks, too) uniform. My son nearly missed a campout becasue of that (luckily we live nearby). My biggest complaint on the uniform is the material (polyester) is very uncomfortable and cargo pockets would be nice to have. Scouts are expected to wear Scout shirts for meetings and formal occasions. They are encouraged to wear Scout pants/shorts, but we do not require. About half the Scouts wear full field uniform. Scout T-shirts are acceptable summer camp wear, as is most anything else. ... Our adults always try to set the example by being in full uniform most of the time. I even use an official BSA = handkerchief!!! but that's another story. Interestingly, the High Adventure Explorer (Venturer??) Post I started are all enthusiastic about the Explorer Uniform. The first fund raiser we had was earmarked for uniforms. Go figure... Our general policy is full uniform when interfacing directly with the public, meetings and travel. Once we are on a campout (other than Summer Camp) the scouts can wear what ever they choose. As with any proud team, the uniform with badges in the correct places is a component of that pride. Ask anyone who has gone from scouts into the military. Our PLC voted for a minimum of a shirt at meetings, with the rest of the uniform optional. I have succeeded in getting them to approve a troop logo to go on a neckerchief and troop tshirt. Once we get those printed, the neckerchief will be mandatory at meetings. I would like more of the uniform and try to set an example by always wearing the full uniform to meetings. I require travel to/from outings to be at least the shirt. I strongly encourage scouts not to wear the pants on outings. They are too expensive and fragile for camping. When we get the shirts printed, they will become the camp uniform. We try to get and keep our boys uniformed. We are not in an area of great wealth, but we manage by rotating the uniforms around through more than one generation/family. There is still a need for full dress (Class A) uniforms. Honor Guard, Scout Sunday and selected service projects. Hiking and Camping require a different uniform- from a functionality standpoint. Not all our scouting outings are appropriate for Full Class A's... I believe and am in agreement w/ many on the list that the Class A is really an inappropriate attire for anything other than formal things like COH, Dinner...things that do not require 'active' participation and by 'active' I mean work, play, projects and so on. Common sense has to take place over uniforming "RULES" Our committee does not allow me to require BSA pants all the time, but I do require them for Eagle BOR & COH. I can't always fight the committee. A number of our boys don't own BSA pants, so we try to be flexible on the "full uniform required" part. We don't want to exclude anybody because they don't have the right clothes. However, we do encourage everyone to eventually obtain all the pieces. My troop does not consider the scout pants or shorts as absolutely nescessary for every scout since the income level of each scout's parent varies widely. It would be great if all the scouts could wear the pants in our troop, but we consider blue jeans exceptable for most purposes. Some boys in our troop own full BSA field uniforms and would wear them where we indicate BSA SHIRT/OTHER PANTS. Our unit does not "require" full uniforming. We ask them to wear their uniform as completely as they can. In most cases that is shirt/other pants. Our Troop "Uniform" is Scout Shirt/Neckerchief/Slide/Belt/ Hat (optional) over "blue" jeans in a good state of repair and cleanliness. This is purely a cost issue (I would lose Scouts if I demanded the pants too.) I do encourage those who are Eagle-bound to acquire a full regulation uniform for/before their EBOR and ECOH. The current uniform is way too expensive. If OD BDU pants would encourage the boys to wear the uniform more often... National should do it. Troop XX consisted of youth age 15 and older. They absolutely refuse to wear any uniform where there is a risk of being seen by their friends. Within the last two years the troop has doubled in size due to a reorganized feeder pack. The younger boys are willing to wear uniforms. Right now there is a power struggle between the adult leaders who want uniforming and the older boys who are trying to convince the younger Scouts that uniforms are "dorky". The older boys were never Cub Scouts. Our Troop asks the Scouts to wear the official pants, but doesn't require them to do so. I think a lot of families just can't afford them. The other reason a lot don't have them is the Scouts didn't ask for them from their parents.(kids don't like the look and feel of them). We don't require any specific type of pants in the troop, they don't wear neckerchiefs eiter (Troop vote). I don't know if there is a real reason other than we're lax in the uniform department, our main concern is a shirt, we have troop t-shirts and sweatshirts. We prefer them to at least wear a "scout" shirt to meetings whether it be from camp or whatever. On a personal level, with having 5 members of my family in Scouts including myself; financially it kills me to have to outfit pants for everyone. Especially with 3 growing boys that seem to go through 5 sizes a year. We asked the Patrol Leaders council and all of my assistant Scoutmasters what they would prefer and they came up with the following: Boy Scout pants are always accepted. (I always wear mine when I am wearing the shirt). The only requirements for pants was that they were clean, no holes, and had belt loops. This eliminated boys wearing running shorts or sweat pants. Most of the boys wear Jeans or jean shorts. I would say that the Scoutmaster would like to see everyone dressed in total uniform. He always is! But he appears to be lucky to have the boys even show up in their shirts (although that has been happening more and more often lately). The pants are usually blue = jeans, probably because of expense. I've seen the boys show up in shorts and sometimes chinos like "Dockers" -- but not often. At troop meetings the boys usually wear jeans with their BSA shirt- sometime the black camo pants. Most outings the black camo pants are also worn. The reason we went to black camo pants was to try to get everybody to wear the same thing. Many of our older boys did not buy the BSA pants because of the cost and the fact that they would only be worn for Boy scouts. More cost effective to get them to buy something that they would wear other times. At the time we did this we also did alot of things with our explorer troop and they were wearing the black camos. This way we all looked the same and the older boys did also. We don't require the BSA = pants for anything but Eagle boards. For me the reason is fit. The fabric is reasonable tough and dries quickly. But the cut is too tight around my thighs. I have bought a size too large and then took the waist in, but my wife got tired of doing that. On the Pants issue we allow the boys to wear blue jeans, or other pants except sweat pants and don't require a full uniform, the Scout Master would rather have a boy with no uniform than no boy. BDU's we let the boys wear on outings only. Also we are mainly a military unit and finances are a problem. Joseph A. Alessi in Ozwin 2.14 JosephAlessi@Compuserve.com Vice Chair - Program, Lafayette District ASM Troop 313 Advisor to the Treasurer, Unami Lodge I used to be an Owl From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Wed Apr 1 11:08:12 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id LAA01950 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:08:12 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA06106 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:00:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6062; Wed, 01 Apr 98 09:59:32 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1260; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:00:37 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 0810 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:59:22 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0809; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:15:36 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 01 Apr 98 08:15:32 CDT Received: from mail.enter.net (mail.enter.net) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IVCJMISOQO00E850@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for Scouts-L@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 01 Apr 1998 08:14:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 204.170.16.37 (m40atwn-1-27.enter.net [204.170.16.37]) by mail.enter.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA12078 for ; Wed, 01 Apr 1998 09:13:59 -0500 (EST) MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <35220555.48BD@enter.net> Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:13:57 +0000 Reply-To: "Donald W. Miles" Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "Donald W. Miles" Organization: Attorney Subject: Re: Uniform fabric X-To: Scouts-L@tcu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: I hope our choice is not limited to cotton = hypothermia OR polyester/nylon = incineration. At the dawn of the 21st century, I have to think there's a flame-resistant, breathable synthetic fabric out there for our Uniform. Any textile chemists present ? -- Don Miles, ASM Troop 318, Bethlehem, PA "I used to be a Fox . . ." From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Thu Apr 2 10:11:27 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA10665 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:11:27 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA09214 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:03:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7058; Thu, 02 Apr 98 09:03:02 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6940; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:52:52 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 6583 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:51:47 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6582; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:37:29 -0500 Approved-By: EIDSON@TCUBVM Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9641; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 00:11:54 -0500 Received: from dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 01 Apr 98 00:11:38 CDT Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id AAA19153 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 00:09:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from mia-fl14-33.ix.netcom.com(206.217.148.161) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma019124; Wed Apr 1 00:09:36 1998 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <3521D987.C08B760B@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 01:07:03 -0500 Reply-To: Doug Roach Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Doug Roach Subject: The final, terminal, conclusive ULTIMATE uniform! To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Rex Cole wrote: >Hopefully, a blend will be found which will be safe, insulate when wet, >and still look sharp without ironing. Group, Follows is a list that all here may copy and forward directly to Irving. Maybe this will end this thread. (Sorry, Rex, it ain't you... you're just the one I grabbed) Yo, Texas Scout honchos....(or some other polite opening) We the "Multiple Recipients of list Scouts-L" have collectively decided after careful consideration and much deliberation that the following constitutes what will be an acceptable new uniform for BSA members. It MUST: - Be made in USA by union labor - Have no collar to mess up a neckerchief - Have the capacity to double as a sterile pressure bandage - Contain more and bigger pockets than Captain Kangaroo had - Be available in olive drab (or at least match od BDU pants) - Never need ironing - Contain equal parts wool, Polartec, Gore-tex and genuine leather - Have a nice collar to lay over a neckerchief - Be water resistant and fire retardant - Be stylish enough to wear on dates - Be warm in winter and cool in summer - Have the ability to serve as a personal flotation device - Come equipped with ALL badges of rank and every potential temporary patch already sewed on in their PROPER location (according to Bob's book) - Keep the bugs away - Contain a microchip that identifies the owner when it's found in the Troop Trailer under a Patrol kitchen box - Include a collar that can be arbitrarily folded under OR worn over a neckerchief - Be able to serve as a ground cloth either INSIDE or OUTSIDE a tent - Cost less than a days pay - Fit all fat guys over 40 - Include an already-sewed-on universal name badge - Resist the travails of fumigation after being shoved to the bottom of a backpack for three days - Be sold in 7-11 stores nationwide - Contain that one other feature which my wife will surely mention AFTER I send this - Be retroactively approved for use by B-P himself (you're the pros, YOU figure out how) :-) Hey... can we get over it guys? The people in Irving (not without justification) ain't gonna do squat about changing what they likely see as a perfectly adequate uniform because it would quite simply cost major bucks. That's all. End of story, end of thread. Frustrated, but always hopefully yours in Scouting, Doug Roach SA Troop 10 - South Florida Council - Miami http://www.action-net.net/T10 mailto:djroach@ix.netcom.com From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Thu Apr 2 09:04:42 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id JAA24895 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:04:42 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6917; Thu, 02 Apr 98 07:56:22 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5710; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:51:54 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 5517 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:50:43 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5516; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 06:57:55 -0500 Received: from magpage.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 02 Apr 98 06:57:52 CDT Received: from magpage.com (pm3-1-23.phl.magpage.com [208.222.91.32]) by magpage.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA27000; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:56:19 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3.0.5.32.19980401142917.007f4430@scouter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <35238A6D.5535890A@magpage.com> Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:54:05 -0500 Reply-To: Norman MacLeod Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Norman MacLeod Organization: Gaelic Wolf Consultinmg Subject: Fabric types and safety X-To: Rick Seymour To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Rick and all -- With the number of fabric types available to us today, there's really not a great need to settle on one fabric to the exclusion of all others. The problem comes in educating Scouts (and more importantly, their parents) about the pros and cons of different fabric types. For instance, while cotton can be lethal in a cool or cold and wet environment, due to its ability to transport heat away from your body at a rate of up to 240 times as rapidly as dry skin in still air, it is really great for warm or hot sunny days, when you want that wicking action to help keep you cooler. Remember, there's a lethal problem at the high end of the thermometer, too. It's called heat stroke and can kill far more rapidly than hypothermia can, and is MUCH harder to fight. Yes, fire safety is a real concern when it comes to some of the synthetics. That's why we don't allow open flames in tents. Makes sense to choose a synthetic that doesn't have a low ignition temperature, but there are plenty of synthetics and blends that fit the bill for safety. Most of them might have a small melt hole if an ember lands on you, but it doesn't go beyond that. Makes a good argument for a cotton inner shirt under that synthetic blend, I should think... Nomex is the best in fire-resistance. However, many years of wearing a zoom bag (flight suit) convinces me that it doesn't insulate you from the cold, and leaves you sweating in the heat. At least, not on its own. Need to layer if you use this stuff. It's not cheap, and it has an annoying tendency to unravel easily unless reinforced a la rip stop. Kevlar is incredibly strong, but it's not cheap. Probably not a realistic alternative for most of us. Wool is great for retaining warmth when wet. Works OK for sheep, right? Some people are sensitive to wool against the skin, though. We're talking layering again... Wool is also heavier than a lot of other fabrics, and the prices of woolen clothing are right up there, too. There are pluses and minuses to all types of fabrics. Common sense in using them is the obvious answer. However, the main problem with common sense is that it isn't as common as we would like. Never has been, never will be. In the back country, fire is less a hazard than cool, misty or rainy days. Cotton is great when the air is dry, and you need to be able to get heat away from your body. On the other hand, it can help you die fairly quickly if an afternoon thunderstorm races up on you before you can get to camp. Common sense says, prepare yourself for the full range of weather you are likely to encounter, with a bit of a safety margin toward the unexpected. When you are in camp, and there are open flames around, common sense says that you ought to be wearing a natural fabric next to your skin. Most of us take care of this in the form of jeans and cotton t-shirts. If the weather is cool or cold, we add wool or a synthetic insulating layer on top of this. We used to use a lot of down-filled clothing to keep ourselves warm in the cold, However, down mashes and loses its ability to insulate when it gets wet, so today's light-weight synthetics won us over for every-day bush wear. I still have that cotton inner layer, though, since moisture wicks through it on its way to the outside air. I like to keep my innermost clothing layer (my skin) as dry as possible, whether the weather is wet or dry. Again, using common sense. Sometimes the cotton layer is the outer layer, too. However, as soon as the fog, mist, rain, or snow begins, the synthetic outer layers get added. Common sense. As Leaders, we should all strive to become aware of the pluses and minuses of each of the fabric classes and the clothing made from them. Parents will come to us to gain some of that knowledge when they are in purchasing mode for their Scouts. Money is an issue for most of us, and we are all looking for the best value for every dollar we allow through our fingers (hopefully). We need to be prepared to help the parents of our Scouts temper that spending with quality knowledge. After all, if they want us to be responsible for the safety of their children, they should do their best to equip their Scouts appropriately, consistent with their financial abilities to do so. At the same time, we need to train their children to be responsible for their own clothing safety, regardless of what they bring with them. (We need to be sure they bring the right clothes for the activity, though...) How many of us do a fabric check before we take the kids off into the bush? Can we all say, "Risk Management"? Norman -- ============================================= GAELIC WOLF CONSULTING Healthcare Informatics Telemedicine Solutions Internet Presence Strategy and Design Internet Marketing http://www.gaelwolf.com/ ***************************************************** Home of the Gaelic Wolf Scouting Pages as a community involvement courtesy http://www.gaelwolf.com/gaelwolf/home.htm ============================================= From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Wed Apr 1 20:12:14 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id UAA25623 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:12:14 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6154; Wed, 01 Apr 98 10:44:23 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2183; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:45:18 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 1806 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:44:12 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1805; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:27:20 -0500 Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 01 Apr 98 10:26:54 CDT Received: from GMarmet@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4TDRa03579; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:24:52 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 61 Message-ID: <7c0109a3.35226a56@aol.com> Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:24:52 EST Reply-To: GMarmet Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: GMarmet Subject: Re: Boy Scout uniform X-To: mayhewr@HQ12AF3.DM.AF.MIL To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 98-03-31 15:35:11 EST, you write: << - How many show up to a meeting without the shirt on (wearing just a t-shirt) and put the uniform shirt on once you arrive?...then take it off before you leave? NEVER - How many would make a stop at Wal-Mart or Target wearing their uniform? ABSOLUTELY AND WALK TALLER AND STRAIGHTER...or do you go at another time when not in uniform? NOPE - How many stop for gas in their uniform? YOU BETHCHA.... or do you wait to fill up at a time when you won't be wearing it? >> NOPE I'm with Mayhew. I would wear my uniform all the time, if I could. When my son's were in Soccer, I had a patch jacket I wore to every soccer game, just to recruit. (Sadly the patch jacket doesn't fit anymore- must have shrunk). I would redesign the uniform, if I could. But each of us, seemingly, would design it differently. My design would be like those jungle shirts, with the pleated pockets with flaps, and epaulets, and a placket in front (you know that doubled material where the button holes are) and a real collar with a collar band. And there wouldn't be a short sleeve shirt- but the long sleeve would have that nifty tab inside the sleeve that when you rolled up the sleeve it buttoned up on your sleeve so the sleeves didn't roll down. And it would be sturdy. The material- I hate the current poly cotton, because it is sweaty when you are warm and doesn't keep you warm when its cold. It doesn't breath. I (notice, no one else- just I) would prefer cotton. But maybe the new nylons would work. I just can't get over the 70's when those shiny double knit nylon shirts were popular for men- gawd they were awful looking, and hot too! Yours in Scouting, G. John Marmet ASM T156, Glenview, Illinois From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Fri Apr 3 02:41:25 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id CAA18635 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 02:41:25 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7809; Fri, 03 Apr 98 01:33:12 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0469; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 01:34:28 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 8151 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 01:33:20 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8150; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 14:15:55 -0500 Received: from spot.Colorado.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 02 Apr 98 14:14:23 CDT Received: from localhost (amick@localhost) by spot.Colorado.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p) with SMTP id NAA18280; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 13:12:38 -0700 (MST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 13:12:37 -0700 Reply-To: Amick Robert Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Amick Robert Subject: Uniform redesign (fabric safety issues and hypothermia) X-cc: explorer-net@scouter.com To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: I agree with Joe that if you want to change into or add cotton outgarments (or NOMEX if you are really concerned with flammability) while you are working with flammables, that certainly makes sense, but just be sure you have the synthetics/fleece fabrics for all other times. In any outdoor setting, summer or winter, the probability of hypothermia from wearing wet cotton is far greater than the probability of serious burns while wearing synthetic fabrics, and can be just as deadly for the unprepared. Hypothermia as you know is often insidiously caused by "killer cotton;" and most hypothermia cases and deaths occur in the summer months rather than in the winter, due to a variety of factors; mostly inadequate preparation for sudden weather changes, resultant wet clothing, and exposure to wind which dramatically increases the wind chill factor. Polyester fleece retains virtually no moisture and will insulate even when only slightly damp, unlike cotton which saturates heavily with water and takes forever to dry out, thus wicking body heat away at alarming rates. My favorite demonstration of this phenomenon is to take a pair of dry cotton jeans, weigh them on a scale, then soak them in water and weigh them again. The weight difference is remarkable. Then, I do the same with a fleece pullover, and there is very little change in the weight since fleece holds virtually no moisture. Just to further enhance the point, I take a thermometer, place it on the wet cotton jeans and start a fan blowing on them. The temperature drop from evaporative cooling is pretty impressive. Conversely with the fleece it is imperceptible. So the point is easily made to the unwary Scouts who don't associate the dangers of hypothermia with wet cotton clothing. We can't prevent everything, but we have to deal with probabilities; with reasonable care, folks can prevent being seriously burned, but with young folks especially, it is far more difficult to keep them warm and non-hypothermic when they are wearing cotton. Remember too that children and adolescents (and the elderly) are far more susceptible to hypothermia than adults and the onset is far more rapid, so when they complain of being chilled, best pay attention and see that something is done to quickly compensate. Unfortunately, they often do not complain until they are really in trouble, with numb feet and hands, and are shivering. This occurred at a recent winter district campout, and upon the recommendation of the health and safety staff, the event chairman decided to cancel the event because the wind chill factor and number of folks coming down with hypothermia was becoming significant. And, of course, most of those affected were wearing what else? Cotton socks, jeans, underwear, etc. At the Air Force Academy's large "Freeze-O-Ree" the medical staff took special precautions by using space heaters in military tents set up for rewarming. Although the weather wasn't severe, it was very useful to have that kind of "aid station" to deal with hypothermic Scouts. Dehydration is also a chief contributor to hypothermia and is equally insidious. Warm "Gatorade" or other sports drinks are good since they also help to quickly rehydrate, restore electrolyte balances, and provide glucose (which is directly absorbed into the bloodstream and metabolized) and rewarm hypothermic Scouts (and Scouters). Another good tactic is to give Scouts "midnite snacks" of high fat foods such as cheese before they go to bed which will be slowly digested and turned into sugars to help keep them warm throughout the night. During the day, they should have "gorp" bags with nuts, sugar candies, raisins, granola, etc., and mandated "water breaks" so they rehydrate frequently. And if you want to get into the "dreaded cotton scout socks controversy" they are the chief contributor for blistering of feet on even minimal hikes. Having worked in Jamboree Subcamp medical centers for many previous jamborees, I can attest to this phenomenon from first hand experience. Norman McLeod's post on this topic is especially thorough and well done. There are fabrics and garments which are designed for varying situations. In accordance with our motto, "Be Prepared," it is imperative that we educate Scouts and Scouters on the appropriate variety and applications for them in changing environments. Best wishes, Bob Amick, EMT-B, Explorer Advisor, High Adventure Explorer Post 72/SES72, Boulder, CO; Longs Peak Council Exploring Training Chair On Mon, 30 Mar 1998, Joe Burns wrote: > As a long time EMT in both the city and the back country, I would rather > deal with an individual who came into contact with a fire while wearing > cotton than some one wearing one of those miracle plastics that continue > to melt into and through the flesh after the source of ignition is > removed. From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Sat Apr 4 12:53:14 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id MAA29292 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 12:53:14 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8763; Sat, 04 Apr 98 11:45:23 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6162; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 11:46:48 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 2411 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 11:46:09 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2410; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:22:14 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 03 Apr 98 09:21:28 CDT Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com (arl-img-5.compuserve.com) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IVFEIW7ECW00EQ9W@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for SCOUTS-L@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 03 Apr 1998 09:19:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.10) id KAA06604 for SCOUTS-L@TCU.EDU; Fri, 03 Apr 1998 10:19:40 -0500 (EST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <199804031019_MC2-38E2-4533@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:19:06 -0500 Reply-To: Joseph Alessi Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Joseph Alessi Subject: Re: Uniforming X-To: Scouts-L Mail List To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Rick Seymour wrote: >> The Uniform should be worn at *all* Scouting events. This is not just some impractical "law on the books" of William Hillcourt that no one has gotten around to changing. It is one of the living Eight Methods of Scouting. = The reason that we adults say one thing and do another, is that the Uniform is no longer designed to be practical in the very environment where Scouting takes place. It is the Uniform that needs fixing, not the Program. << Rick: I too believe very strongly in the uniform as one of the 8 methods of scouting. However, I don't think that it is possible to come up with one uniform that can do the job at all times. We already have two uniforms - winter and summer. As others have posted, they are for the most part "dress" uniforms. Since there is a significant minority who don't even agree that the official pants should be part of the "dress" uniform, redesigning the uniform would have no meaning for them, since their stated reason for not requiring the full uniform is cost. Also, almost 100% of these scouters allow blue jeans, which we all should know are not appropriate for outdoor wear, anyway. Given the great extremes of environment that we find ourselves in, I don't see how we could ever have one uniform that is "right" for all activities. I want one thing for Klondike Derbies, and another for winter hiking. I want something else for those damp spring trips, and something else for those 95 degree 95% humidity days here on the Eastern Seaboard. Something else for canoeing or sea base. What I would like to see is the current two uniforms for "dress" occasions like troop meetings, COH's, BoR's, parades, scout shows, etc. I would also like to see at least two "activity" uniforms (one winter and one summer) for use out of doors. There could be additional pieces of the "activity" uniform that could be mixed and matched as the environment requires. I would not have all cotton, since the risk of hypothermia is IMHO higher than the risk of a scout actually being in a fire. Also, I believe that the current synthetics can wick away moisture and keep you cooler in summer, reducing the risk of heat stress/ exhaustion/stroke. In any case I think that there are deeper issues at work here. While no leader has really came out and said so, I believe that at least some of those who do not support full uniforming do so because they themselves don't like wearing it. We've heard from Scouter's saying they won't wear the uniform because they lost their keys. My response is a trip to the tailor's and $2 will get you deeper pockets! We've heard about the "cut" of the pants being bad, or the fit being poor. However, given the fact that you can essentially get a uniform "custom tailored" at no additional cost (as long as you buy 2 of them at one time), these really shouldn't be issues. Besides, all of the boys I've come in contact with want their clothes one way - way too big!!!! We all know that for the most part the boys in the program would rather not wear the uniform because they don't really want to be identified as scouts. They can hide the shirt under a jacket or sweatshirt, or carry it with them and put it on as the troop lines up to start the meeting. It's a lot harder to do this with the pants. There were several who responded to the survey that the PLC, Troop Committee, or SM/ASM's decided that it was ok to not require the pants, IMHO this doesn't make it ok. The proper wearing of the uniform is spelled out in the handbook and uniform guide, just like the rank requirements are spelled out in the handbook and advancement guide. In my opinion, not requiring the proper uniform is like not requiring service time/Eagle service project for rank advancement. They both are in the rules and guidelines. There isn't any "wiggle room" for local interpretation. Yes, the uniforms cost money. But as I've said before, it's our job as leaders to find ways to fund uniforming, just like we fund the outdoor program. I don't think there are many troops who say that they don't go hiking/camping because of financial reasons! There are ways to outfit your scouts. One of B-P's tenets was that a boy should earn the money for his uniform, to help teach him self-reliance and to give him pride in it. As leaders, we should find ways to help boys accomplish this task! Uniform banks can also go a long ways in filling this need. Chartered Organizations can help. Look to other civic associations. We should not let this become a class issue, where those troops who consider themselves "poor" don't wear the full uniform, thus singling themselves out at all events where other scouts are present. One of the "hidden methods" in the uniform is to make all scouts equal. Having one patrol in full uniform, one in a uniform shirt and blue jeans, and a third in a troop t-shirt and camo pants at an event certainly doesn't meet this objective. All that said, I don't think you'll see me at Philmont wearing the class A shirt and shorts as I come in to base camp over Tooth Ridge! I don't want to think of what my shoulders would be like from the buttons on the epaulets digging in from the 50 pound pack! YIS Joseph A. Alessi in Ozwin 2.14 JosephAlessi@Compuserve.com Vice Chair - Program, Lafayette District ASM Troop 313 Advisor to the Treasurer, Unami Lodge I used to be an Owl