From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Thu Mar 19 03:04:08 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id DAA06956 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 03:04:08 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6553; Thu, 19 Mar 98 01:55:49 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3965; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 01:56:45 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 2921 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 01:55:53 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2920; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 20:15:52 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 18 Mar 98 20:15:20 CDT Received: from mail.scouter.net (bp.SCOUTER.com) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IUTOP59UFK00CUER@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for scouts-l@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 20:13:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from buffnet.buffnet.net [205.247.124.186] by mail.scouter.net (SMTPD32-4.03) id ADC7A720046; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 20:07:03 CST6CDT X-Sender: rick@scouter.net MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE References: <3.0.5.32.19980316200113.007d8b70@scouter.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980318211207.007cba70@scouter.net> Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:12:07 -0500 Reply-To: Rick Seymour Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Rick Seymour Subject: Toward a New Scout Uniform X-To: ITI@frontiernet.net X-cc: scouts-l@tcu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <350EED9C.23E2@frontiernet.net> Status: RO X-Status: John Conley writes: > To address the societal aspect of your post, Scouting is not=20 > terribly hip among the young population at large. Thus the=20 > coolest uniform we could possibly design will not be a source > of pride unless *what it stands for* is a source of pride. John,=20 To begin with, I believe that the Uniform should SCREAM=20 "High Adventure" and not "stand for" some higher purpose as many people believe. From the very beginning, Baden-Powell disguised the character-building purpose of Scouting by=20 presenting it to youth as a challenging game "played by boys=20 under the leadership of boys." He did NOT (as the BSA=20 mistakenly states in Scoutmastership Fundamentals) present it to boys as a "game with a purpose." A English boy didn=92t join Scouting to learn Citizenship, but=20 through the romance of chivalry his cunning and imagination=20 could be engaged to seek out opportunities to do good deeds. As one historian said, prior to Scouting, boys looked for heroes, but with the invention of Scouting, boys could learn to BE=20 heroes. In America this principle of action over concept was understood very well by the BSA Founders who crafted Baden-Powell=92s=20 rather awkward version of the Scout Law into a simple and=20 poetic statement of what a Scout IS. Likewise, the Scout Oath is not about what a Scout believes, it is how he promises to ACT. These Ideals are one of Eight Methods, all of which involve=20 action. It is not our function as adults to make the Aims of Citizenship, Character, and Fitness "hip" to either the young population at=20 large or to the Scouts in our Troops. Our role is to apply the=20 Eight Methods in such a way as to capture their imaginations. > I'm not against trying to keep the program current, but=20 > anything we can do to make Scouts proud of being Scouts will=20 > go a lot further toward getting them in uniform than modernizing > the uniform will. You make Scouts proud of being Scouts by offering an exciting=20 program. A Uniform that is comfortable and highly functional in the outdoors offers the promise of this adventure. It will be= =20 worn with pride because it also promotes the Methods of=20 Advancement, Outdoor Program, and Leadership Development.=20 Follow Jim Peterson=92s advice and look through the Boy Scout Handbook with an eye on Advancement. As he pointed out,=20 most of the pictures in the Handbook show Scouts in the=20 "activities uniform." What does this tell you about the value we place on Advancement? Advancement is not just a Method of Scouting, it is a description of what Scouting is. It is a listing of the experiences that all= =20 Scouts should have at certain milestones in their development within the Program. You should be able to tell at a glance what rank a Scout has achieved, and thus what experiences and=20 strengths he is likely to have. This is not possible with an=20 "activities uniform." If you demand tough standards for=20 Advancement, the use of an Official Uniform (preferably one=20 that won=92t kill them) places their rank on display and thereby=20 provides Scouts with a pride in their accomplishments and a=20 legitimate sense of self-esteem. =20 A clean but beat-up, bruised and mended Uniform is a thing of=20 beauty and should be worn at all Courts of Honor. It speaks of=20 the Outdoors and serves as a constant reminder that the weekly Troop meeting is but a means to an end, a preparation for the=20 next outdoor adventure. A hot house Uniform that is no good in the outdoors speaks volumes about air conditioned offices in=20 Irving, Texas.=20 A Uniform designed to give the Neckerchief its proper=20 prominence would allow for the better display of special "commemorative" Neckerchiefs which encourage brother Scouts to participate in such activities as World and National Jamborees. These are transforming experiences that promote Personal Growth as Scouts find their place in the worldwide brotherhood of Scouts, many millions strong. =20 Council and National JLT Neckerchiefs promote Leadership=20 Development, as do Woodbadge Neckerchiefs on adults. In a=20 well-trained Troop, the Badges of Office found on a seasoned Uniform have real meaning. Like Badges of rank, they speak to=20 what a Scout does, as his Uniform speaks with the authority that comes from experience it and the Scout have seen. So you see, John, I think a traditional Uniform, using modern materials would go a long way toward making Scouts proud of being Scouts. > As far as the "gear" aspect goes, the trend in outdoor gear seems > to be toward more and more specialized garments as technology=20 > improves. This is true, but certain general principles apply to most situations= . Fast drying material, freedom of movement, and lots of pockets=20 would top my list. > It's not realistic to think that we could come up with one=20 > uniform that would be appropriate for all activities. Plenty of Scouters would be willing to give it a try, I=92ll bet! > I'm willing to bet that B-P's uniform design would have been=20 > much different if he had had today's technology available. =20 How do you suppose he would approach this important task? Yours in Scouting, Rick Seymour Buffalo, NY From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Thu Mar 19 09:50:05 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id JAA19494 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:50:05 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6706; Thu, 19 Mar 98 08:42:15 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4944; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 08:43:26 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 4926 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 08:40:27 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4925; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 08:40:25 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 19 Mar 98 08:40:16 CDT Received: from hil-img-1.compuserve.com (hil-img-1.compuserve.com) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IUUELUE0GW00CTIH@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for SCOUTS-L@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 08:35:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hil-img-1.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.10) id JAA16047 for SCOUTS-L@TCU.EDU; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:35:38 -0500 (EST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <199803190935_MC2-3755-3B8D@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:34:15 -0500 Reply-To: Joseph Alessi Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Joseph Alessi Subject: Re: Uniforming X-To: Scouts-L Mail List To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Paul Kasley wrote: >> My troop and another troop in town have adopted Olive Drab BDUs for our official uniform. << Ouch!!!! Here comes another uniform battle!!! Paul and others who think that this is ok: Uniforming is one of the methods of scouting. Here's what official BSA literature says about this method: The uniform makes the Scout troop visible as a force for good and creates a positive youth image in the community. Boy Scouting is an action program, and wearing the uniform is an action that shows each Scout's commitment to the aims and purposes of Scouting. The uniform gives the Scout identity in a world brotherhood of youth who believe in the same ideals. = The uniform is practical attire for Scout activities, and provides a way for Scouts to wear the badges that show what they have accomplished. = What is the official uniform? It is described in the Boy Scout Handbook and in the Uniform and Insignia Guide. How would you feel if my troop leaders thought it was ok to change another one of the methods? For example, one method is "ideals", which BSA describes as follows: The ideals of Scouting are spelled out in the Scout Oath, Law, motto, and slogan. The Scout measures himself against these ideals and continually tries to improve. The goals are high, and as he reaches for them he has some control over what he becomes. "Show Scout spirit," a requirement for each rank advancement, means living up to these ideals. = Is it ok for my troop to decide that we will use a different Scout Law that says "A Scout has fun", since (1) the boys like it (2) it's easier to remember (3) it doesn't take as long to recite (4) they have no problems following it? How about another method - advancement. Again, here's what BSA says: Scouting provides a series of surmountable obstacles and steps to overcome them through the advancement method. The Scout plans his advancement and, by participating in the troop program, progresses as he overcomes each challenge. The Scout is rewarded for each achievement, which helps him gain self-confidence. The steps in the advancement system help a boy grow in self-reliance and the ability to help others. What if my troop decides that Personal Management, = Communications, and Family Life aren't really important, and take them out of the Eagle required badges, substituting Cooking, Wilderness Survival, and Pioneering? The methods are what they are. The rules are spelled out. Think about what message you are giving to the boys. You are telling them that rules should only be followed if you agree with them - if it's inconvenient for you, it's ok to ignore them. Many folks have commented on the atheist/agnostic scout = issue that "if they don't want to follow the rules, they should not want to join Boy Scouting. Let them go out and start their own organization". My position here is the same. If you disagree with current uniform policy, work within the system to change it. Until it is changed, comply. If you can't or won't comply, leave. If you can't tell, I feel pretty strongly about this. In fact, this is one of those cases where I hope that those hidden BSA "monitors" who read this list act and forward your post to your council for appropriate action by the SE. Paul, I don't know you, and I don't mean this to be a personal attack. I don't even know if you agree with your troop's policy, or are just posting it here for information. In any case, I hope that you work with your troop committee and uniformed (I guess I mean non=3Duniformed) leaders to rethink your troop's position. YIS Joseph A. Alessi in Ozwin 2.14 JosephAlessi@Compuserve.com Vice Chair - Program, Lafayette District ASM Troop 313 Advisor to the Treasurer, Unami Lodge I used to be an Owl From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Thu Mar 19 10:35:17 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from server1.capaccess.org (server1.CapAccess.org [151.200.199.15]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA02691 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:35:17 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by server1.capaccess.org (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with SMTP id KAA27326 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:26:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6740; Thu, 19 Mar 98 09:27:07 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5156; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:28:20 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 5139 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:25:24 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5138; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:25:22 -0500 Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 19 Mar 98 09:21:27 CDT Received: from GMarmet@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id BMVZa03894; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:20:04 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 61 Message-ID: <64eb22cd.351137a6@aol.com> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:20:04 EST Reply-To: GMarmet Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: GMarmet Subject: Re: Toward a New Scout Uniform X-To: rick@SCOUTER.NET To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 98-03-19 02:59:09 EST, rick@SCOUTER.NET writes: << So you see, John, I think a traditional Uniform, using modern materials would go a long way toward making Scouts proud of being Scouts. >> Before we go too far with this, I would certainly weigh in on the side of a traditional uniform with TRADITIONAL MATERIALS. That is without polyester. While thin poly cotton certainly holds up better than thin cotton, heavy cotton is certainly better than either. Breaths better, feels better, etc. Yours in Scouting, G. John Marmet From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Thu Mar 19 11:30:26 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from server1.capaccess.org (server1.CapAccess.org [151.200.199.15]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id LAA14993 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:30:26 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by server1.capaccess.org (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with SMTP id LAA34728 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:21:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6792; Thu, 19 Mar 98 10:22:16 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5465; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:23:06 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 5432 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:20:06 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5431; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:19:12 -0500 Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 19 Mar 98 10:19:04 CDT Received: from CoopWright@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id JPDDa02002; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:16:27 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Message-ID: <4f891c7b.351144de@aol.com> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:16:27 EST Reply-To: CoopWright Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: CoopWright Subject: Re: Toward a New Scout Uniform X-To: GMarmet@aol.com To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: John I love these postings on uniforms. Scouters and scouters need a uniform that can be worn in the outdoors. Right now the shift is away from cotton (the death cloth) to synthetics that are capable of drying out quickly. I was amazed to see a crew at Philmont, all walking in scout shorts. These short are not designed for walking. The leg cut is too small, you have to wear underwear (cotton again-we wear blended nylon baggy shorts with built in liners) and they won't dry if they get wet. If you are going to spend anytime in the backcountry, synthetics are the way to go. After 20 years in the military I found out that there was really two Armys. The first was the ceremonial unit with its spit shined boots and neatly pressed Class A uniforms. The second were those units that spent the majority of the time in the field. They wore the Class B uniform (fatigues) which were more durable, suited to all weather conditons. Here in Virginia, we hold an annual Hike-o- ree in the shadow of the Shenandoahs which attracts over 700 scouts and scouter, male and female. There isn't a Class A uniform in sight. Just my .02 worth. Cooper Wright ASM-Venture, Troop 1519 Distrcit Venture Scout Coordinator Alexandria, VA From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Thu Mar 19 11:54:04 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from server1.capaccess.org (server1.CapAccess.org [151.200.199.15]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id LAA20174 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:54:04 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by server1.capaccess.org (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with SMTP id LAA29456 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:45:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6810; Thu, 19 Mar 98 10:45:06 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5578; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:45:56 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 5565 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:42:56 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5564; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:42:55 -0500 Received: from christa.unh.edu by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 19 Mar 98 10:42:07 CDT Received: from cllh-man41.unh.edu (cllh-man41.unh.edu [132.177.197.41]) by christa.unh.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA06435; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:39:32 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: kswoods@christa.unh.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) References: <19980318145942966.AAA98@hercules> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980319113828.006a3bc0@christa.unh.edu> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:38:28 -0500 Reply-To: "Kevin S. Woods" Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "Kevin S. Woods" Subject: Re: Neckerchiefs, pants, and toilet paper X-To: Larry Tuck To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <350F9E6C.907@earthlink.net> Status: RO X-Status: At 10:14 AM 3/18/98 +0000, Larry Tuck wrote: >Kasley, Paul wrote: My troop and another troop in town have adopted Olive Drab BDUs for our official uniform. As a former member of the Navy AND Army, I want to expres my disagreement with this. Boy Scouts are Boy Scouts NOT MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY, RESERVE OR GUARD! In doing so I believe we denegrade both the scout uniform and the military one. Military personnel are not children playing. They are extremly proud of their uniform as ALL BOY SCOUTS should be. I would like to here the opinions from some of our list members in the military! Kevin S. Woods Scoutmaster Troop 111 Historic District DWC Training Chairperson Raymond, NH 603-669-7997 From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Fri Mar 20 12:25:28 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id MAA24677 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:25:28 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA14435 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:17:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7992; Fri, 20 Mar 98 11:17:45 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1751; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:18:55 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 1670 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:15:44 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1669; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:04:28 -0500 Received: from spot.Colorado.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 20 Mar 98 11:02:55 CDT Received: from localhost (amick@localhost) by spot.Colorado.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p) with SMTP id JAA27675; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:59:28 -0700 (MST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:59:28 -0700 Reply-To: Amick Robert Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Amick Robert Subject: Re: Toward a New Scout Uniform X-To: GMarmet To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <64eb22cd.351137a6@aol.com> Status: RO X-Status: There is of course the caveat that heavy cotton holds moisture, takes a very long time to dry when wet, and contributes to hypothermia more than any other fabric, so in any camping/outdoors setting would not be a fabric of choice. The polyester/cotton fabric blends certainly have their downsides as well, but do hold far less moisture and dry much faster than 100% cotton. Bob Amick, Explorer Advisor, High Adventure Explorer Post 72/SES 72, Boulder CO; Longs Peak Council Exploring Training Chair On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, GMarmet wrote: > While thin poly cotton certainly holds up better than thin cotton, heavy > cotton is certainly better than either. Breaths better, feels better, etc. > > From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Fri Mar 20 12:47:48 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id MAA29507 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:47:48 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA15878 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:39:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8016; Fri, 20 Mar 98 11:39:56 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1949; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:41:09 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 1843 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:36:58 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1839; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:25:12 -0500 Received: from unlinfo3.unl.edu by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 20 Mar 98 11:23:32 CDT Received: from unlinfo.unl.edu (unlinfo.unl.edu [129.93.1.11]) by unlinfo3.unl.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA23395; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 08:44:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from unlinfo.unl.edu (is-blosee2.unl.edu [129.93.17.34]) by unlinfo.unl.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA27991; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 08:48:33 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199803190935_MC2-3755-3B8D@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <35128232.75DFB117@unlinfo.unl.edu> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 08:50:26 -0600 Reply-To: Robert Losee Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Robert Losee Subject: Re: Uniforming X-To: Joseph Alessi To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: > The uniform is practical attire for Scout activities, and > provides a way for Scouts to wear the badges that show > what they have accomplished. Sorry, I must disagree on the word practical. The only time in my life I lost my keys was at a scout function this summer. I normally wear Cabela's shorts with cargo pockets, buttons, zippers, etc.. They're great, my only complaint being they should be synthetic for faster drying. But since this was a council wide big scouting event I decided to wear the official "practical" BSA shorts. Never again. Stuff was constantly falling out of my pockets, and they were cut too tight and too short. In the end I found I had lost a key (connected to a new key chain). Naturally it was the one to the chartering organization and they had just rekeyed the entire building. I'm almost certain it fell out of those "practical" shorts. When the BSA meets it's own requirements of being practical for pants then I'll start wearing the official attire on the lower part of my body. Until then, well lets just say I'd can't afford to loose the chartering org's key again. Bob Losee, SM T25, Lincoln NE From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Fri Mar 20 10:16:51 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id KAA23574 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:16:51 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7730; Fri, 20 Mar 98 08:53:01 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0298; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 07:32:55 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 0287 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 07:31:52 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0286; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 07:31:51 -0500 Received: from mailhost.clf.navy.mil by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 20 Mar 98 07:31:47 CDT Received: from clfbdc01.clf.navy.mil by mailhost.clf.navy.mil with ESMTP (1.38.110.45/16.2) id AA072490602; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 08:30:02 -0500 Received: from usr-131.clf.navy.mil by clfbdc01.clf.navy.mil with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1458.49) id 15PXPPXR; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 08:30:29 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03 (Win95; I; 16bit) Mime-Version: 1.0 References: <3bf27b3.351118bd@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <35126D0C.4E1E@clf.navy.mil> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 08:20:12 -0500 Reply-To: Mark Dryer Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Mark Dryer Subject: Re: Neckerchiefs, pants, and toilet paper X-To: Morrisonch To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Morrisonch wrote: > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Additionally, the National Charter of BSA forbids the Scout Uniform from > "imitating" the uniforms of the Army, Navy, and Marine Corps (add Air Force as > "Johnny-come-latelies"). Imitation must mean "so as to be 'mistaken for' > Soldiers, Sailors, or Marines". Yet in the early days of our charter Boy > Scouts wore uniforms which looked "similar" to the standard Army field uniform > - OD shirt and trousers, boots, puttees, campaign hat. The neckerchief > (interestingly) and the badges of rank and unit affiliation were > distinguishing parts of the uniform which set Scouts apart from military > members. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > How does one explain the Sea Explorer uniform then? If I had a nickel for each time the Shore Patrol stoped me when I was a Sea Explorer walking in uniform from a meeting to the bus stop because we were still in whites and the Navy had gone to blues (or vice versa), I'd be able to buy an extra pair of overprice official Boy Scout trousers to ruin wearing in the field. As to early day Scout uniforms, I have a reprint of the first BSA handbook, which advocates wearing Army surplus uniforms to save money and to avoid shortages of supply of Scout uniforms. Personally, I do not think that I can be mistaken for a soldier dressed in BDU trousers and a sweatshirt or Scout T-shirt. But then that might just be because as a retired Army Drill Sergeant I have a higher opinion of what a soldier should look like <|;) YIS, Mark Dryer ASM, Troop 1 Tidewater Council 11B4X (Ret) Norfolk, VA From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Fri Mar 20 03:10:58 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id DAA05455 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 03:10:58 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7506; Fri, 20 Mar 98 02:02:49 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9233; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 02:02:06 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 8411 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 02:01:03 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8410; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 22:10:58 -0500 Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 19 Mar 98 22:10:52 CDT Received: from steve (1Cust44.tnt1.wenatchee.wa.da.uu.net [208.254.94.44]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA15113; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 20:09:29 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <64eb22cd.351137a6@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <3511EAAA.57C7@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 20:03:54 -0800 Reply-To: Steven Featherkile Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Steven Featherkile Subject: Re: Toward a New Scout Uniform X-To: GMarmet To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: D GMarmet wrote: > > Before we go too far with this, I would certainly weigh in on the side of a > traditional uniform with TRADITIONAL MATERIALS. That is without polyester. > While thin poly cotton certainly holds up better than thin cotton, heavy > cotton is certainly better than either. Breaths better, feels better, etc. Wool is better than cotton. Looks better, is MUCH better in cold and wet conditions, holds up better. Any guesses as to what B-P's uniform was made of?? You got it, wool. Steve Featherkile EA Post 319 Wenatchee, WA From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Fri Mar 20 10:59:58 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id KAA03719 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:59:58 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7880; Fri, 20 Mar 98 09:52:20 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1073; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:53:30 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 1031 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:50:12 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1030; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:47:31 -0500 Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 20 Mar 98 09:45:26 CDT Received: from GMarmet@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id AVGPa03894; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:41:56 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 61 Message-ID: <4598d8c0.35128e46@aol.com> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:41:56 EST Reply-To: GMarmet Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: GMarmet Subject: Re: Toward a New Scout Uniform X-To: madwolf@EARTHLINK.NET To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 98-03-20 03:03:55 EST, you write: << Wool is better than cotton. Looks better, is MUCH better in cold and wet conditions, holds up better. Any guesses as to what B-P's uniform was made of?? You got it, wool. >> No argument. Wool is warm in the winter and my wool suits are cool in the summer. Yours in Scouting, G. John Marmet PS, if this has a funny background when you read it, I have no idea how it got there and make no claim to credit for it. From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Thu Mar 19 12:38:56 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from server1.capaccess.org (server1.CapAccess.org [151.200.199.15]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id MAA00226 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:38:56 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by server1.capaccess.org (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with SMTP id MAA29170 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:26:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6853; Thu, 19 Mar 98 11:27:10 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5794; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:28:25 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 5781 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:25:41 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5780; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:25:35 -0500 Received: from phyas1.mps.ohio-state.edu by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 19 Mar 98 11:25:32 CDT Received: from dalek.mps.ohio-state.edu by mps.ohio-state.edu (PMDF V5.1-9 #19875) with SMTP id <01IUUMJHTCK68X380Z@mps.ohio-state.edu> for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:22:50 EST X-Sender: dalek@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <01IUUMJHY9MG8X380Z@mps.ohio-state.edu> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:22:49 -0500 Reply-To: Dale Karweik Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Dale Karweik Subject: Uniforming To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: I agree 100% with Rick Seymor's recent posting with one small exception that I want to take care first - we present "Scouting is a game with a purpose" to adult leaders with the understanding they should present the GAME to the boys. The purpose should be taught as an adult "secret". I f you apply the methods evenly and completely, they cover the aims and the boys experience it all but see only the FUN. Now on to the real reason for writing. If BP were around to day, I believe he would start with his basic premise for uniforming - a broad brimmed hat to keep off the sun and rain, a neckerchief large enough to be useful, boots for rugged action, long sleeved shirt which could be rolled up to get to work and rolled down for protection, and comfortable loose, fast drying pants or shorts. He would add a jacket for added warmth and a windbreaker/ rain jacket for additional protection from the elements. He would choose durable, easily clean materials for each part. What does translate to - a shirt very similar to the long sleeved uniform shirt, BDU style pants in cotton/ poly blend with rip stop cording, a hat like the Seattle Sombrero, a larger neckerchief, a polartek jacket for warmth and a pack jacket. Socks - long or short - would reflect what all experienced hikers know that a light liner and a heavy pair of wool outer socks works best. These are all things we teach our Scouts and Scouters for hiking, camping and backpacking. Why does't our uniforms reflect this? I agree - too many decisions are made in air conditioned offices. No backpacker would ever have designed those brillo pad waist band shorts. Dale Karweik, ASM Troop 417 Buckeye District, Simon Kenton Council From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Thu Mar 19 12:49:43 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from server1.capaccess.org (server1.CapAccess.org [151.200.199.15]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id MAA02144 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:49:43 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by server1.capaccess.org (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with SMTP id MAA26062 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:41:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6877; Thu, 19 Mar 98 11:41:12 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5851; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:42:27 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 5825 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:37:58 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5824; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:36:32 -0500 Received: from alycia.dementia.org by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 19 Mar 98 11:34:55 CDT Received: from alycia.dementia.org (ALYCIA.DEMENTIA.ORG [128.2.35.149]) by alycia.dementia.org (8.8.5/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA17100; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:32:50 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:32:49 -0500 Reply-To: "Thomas W. Strong Jr." Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: "Thomas W. Strong Jr." Subject: Re: Neckerchiefs, pants, and toilet paper X-To: "Kevin S. Woods" To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980319113828.006a3bc0@christa.unh.edu> Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Kevin S. Woods wrote: >> My troop and another troop in town have adopted Olive Drab BDUs for our >> official uniform. > > As a former member of the Navy AND Army, I want to expres my disagreement > with this. Boy Scouts are Boy Scouts NOT MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY, RESERVE > OR GUARD! > > In doing so I believe we denegrade both the scout uniform and the military > one. Military personnel are not children playing. They are extremly proud > of their uniform as ALL BOY SCOUTS should be. Normally I'm an advocate of wearing a complete, proper uniform, but htis is one exception that I can more or less live with. As long as it's only the OD BDU _Pants_ (as the original poster mentioned) with the rest of the official uniform, it can actually be fairly difficult to tell from any distance that it's not entirely a scout uniform. I'm currently registered in two districts, and I've seen a couple of troops in each district that do likewise - they substitute OD green BDU pants for the official scout pants, at least at activities where I've seen them. Other than the pants being a little bit baggier and the flaps on the pockets being a little different, it's hard to tell them from the real thing. There is no insignia whatsoever on the pants, BSA, military or otherwise, the same as the official pants (ok, the official ones have a fleur de lis on the snap and buttons, but there's still nothing visible from farther than 3 feet). The BDU pants have the advantages of beng more suited for activities (in general - there are soem versions that are junk out there) and often being less expensive. In addition, they are cosmetically very close to the "real thing". Given the variation that has been seen in the official pants (large pockets, small pockets, no pockets, etc, plus several styling changes, all within the latest OD green version) the BDU pants seem like just another variation from BSA supply until someone points out what theyreally are. (now if the original poster had suggested wearing the shirts too, or wearing a non-matching color, or a camo pattern, I would agree that that would go too far) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Thomas W. Strong Jr. strong@dementia.org ----------------- http://www.dementia.org/~strong ----------------- From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Thu Mar 19 17:47:41 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id RAA11344 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 17:47:41 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA11119 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 17:39:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7123; Thu, 19 Mar 98 16:39:34 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7233; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:40:45 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 7224 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:38:16 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7223; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:38:14 -0500 Received: from okvotech.org by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 19 Mar 98 16:37:59 CDT Received: from okvotech.org by okvotech.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA24620; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:17:33 -0600 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3.0.5.32.19980316200113.007d8b70@scouter.net> <3.0.5.32.19980318211207.007cba70@scouter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <3511B9C7.2CACF003@okvotech.org> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:35:19 -0800 Reply-To: Clark Harris Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Clark Harris Subject: Re: Toward a New Scout Uniform To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: I agree with many of the points made by Rick Seymour. The uniforms do not have to encourage boys to become Boy Scouts or Cub Scouts, but they should not discourage people from that decision either. My wife and other mothers in our Pack had severe reservations about the yellow ladies shirts. They are very grateful for the opportunity to wear the khaki colored shirts. I know many adults embarrassed to wear their uniforms out to public places. They have to be convinced that they are setting a good example. I have severe reservations about the Scout pants. In our Troop the boys and adults wear several generations of Scout pants, cargo pocket and not. We have a clothing exchange at our Troop, but there are never large enough pants available. I have been wearing green Dockers, due to this and the fact that Scout pants and shorts are pretty unattractive. (I know. I'm not being a good example. That is why I am voicing my opinion now.) Rick Seymour wrote: > > To begin with, I believe that the Uniform should SCREAM > "High Adventure" and not "stand for" some higher purpose > as many people believe. ... I think that boys and adults would love outdoor type clothing. Ninety percent of the clothes portrayed in BackPacker Magazine have large cargo pockets and they look sharp. The clothes alone make me want to go out and do something. These would look sharp and be very functional. > You make Scouts proud of being Scouts by offering an exciting > program. A Uniform that is comfortable and highly functional > in the outdoors offers the promise of this adventure. It will be > worn with pride ... We require full uniforms of the boys and some balk. Some would rather wear gym shorts with there shirts then the official pants or shorts. (We don let them.) They would jump at the opportunity to wear adventuresome, stylish, comfortable and affordable pants. Me too. (Being stylish does not mean they would sag, etc.) > So you see, John, I think a traditional Uniform, using modern > materials would go a long way toward making Scouts proud of > being Scouts. ... Uniforms can look good and still make you stand out. I think many people are influenced to be Marines, Police, etc. due to the sharpness of some uniforms. > This is true, but certain general principles apply to most situations. > Fast drying material, freedom of movement, and lots of pockets > would top my list. ... I have a pair of very lightweight hiking shorts that I wear on outings. They are light, dry easily, lots of pockets, comfortable and they look sharp. (As sharp as they can on a middle aged, round on the edges adult.) This topic has been discussed many times on this list, around campfires, at roundtables, etc. I think that we should address the problem, before we have many other troops choose blue jeans or the Olive Drab BDUs suggested by another troop as their official pants. Let's select a uniform that makes us look sharp and be proud. This is just my opinion. -- Clark Harris, CM, Pack 3804 - ASM, Troop 18 Stillwater, Oklahoma clarkharris@okvotech.org _____________________________________________ Visit our Pack site at http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Trails/1014/ Visit our Troop site at http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Trails/1018/ "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is too dark to read." Groucho Marx I think I like my misquote better. "Outside of a cow, music is man's best friend. Inside of a cow you can't hear over the four stomachs growling." From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Thu Mar 19 18:22:48 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id SAA17850 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:22:48 -0500 Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA13253 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:15:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7144; Thu, 19 Mar 98 17:14:56 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7337; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 17:16:06 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 7288 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 17:13:24 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7287; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 17:09:28 -0500 Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 19 Mar 98 17:08:13 CDT Received: from ScoutSage1@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id JSRIa01923 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:04:44 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Message-ID: <11fcfedb.3511a48f@aol.com> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:04:44 EST Reply-To: ScoutSage1 Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: ScoutSage1 Subject: Scout Uniforms, Right and Wrong? To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: Hello list: I overall agree with the concepts of the Scouting conservatives. However, the program (as I have pointed out before) is becoming one for the wealthier of our society to participate in. The Official Scout pants my son has in his closest cost about the same as the most expensive pants and shirt he has for school. My family, very active with Scouting spends over $400 a year for uniforms alone. This is for a two fold reason of excessive cost and short life span. I am a unit commissioner for a unit whose highest income is around $15,000 a year. If a family in this income bracket is going to become active in this program and be properly uniformed and equiped they will have to plan on spending about 5% of thier annual before tax income on Scouting. Now, I realize Scouting is a great program, but how many of you who can afford to buy the computer you are receiving this e-mail on really emphathize with this type of situation. Many of the "poorer" units I have had the priviledge of working with scrap the uniform first, then the quality equipment next, followed soon there after (if costs continue to eat away) by scrapping the program itself. I for one would rather see an un-uniformed Scout than and un-Scout, nuff said. Steve Wiseman Nebraska From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Thu Mar 19 19:30:08 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id TAA00611 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 19:30:08 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7217; Thu, 19 Mar 98 18:22:32 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7674; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:23:47 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 7645 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:22:27 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7642; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:22:26 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 19 Mar 98 18:22:23 CDT Received: from LuciaDiLammermoor.acsu.buffalo.edu by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IUUIF6X4QO00D5TA@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for Scouts-L@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:24:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 5519 invoked by uid 20116); Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:24:48 +0000 MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980319162448.5518.qmail@LuciaDiLammermoor.acsu.buffalo.edu> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:24:48 -0500 Reply-To: Don Izard Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Don Izard Subject: Re: Neckerchiefs, pants, and toilet paper X-To: Scouts-L@tcu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <42203BDDF496D111B779006097056070267472@OSAN-AFP-007> Status: RO X-Status: ALL . . for those that seem to want to avoid the military appearance for BSA uniforms, I invite you to compare the 70's-80's US Army kaki or TW shirts to the BSA shirt! In fact very recently I needed a third shirt with only the basic insignia. I did not have time or $$ to run to scout shop (if they had my size). So I sewed on a flag and CSP and World patch to my old army TW shirt, added the red tabs, and even kept my Army name tag. When I was in line with other scouters, no one person noticed any difference and I even asked. One person did NOTE that Boy Scouts of America strip was missing, and I later added one of those. Color match is almost perfect, and it washs and dries faster and with the creases in tact! I have also used my old Viet Nam era fatigue pants at camp, with my Army TW shirt, and it makes a VERY functional combination. Those fatigue pants had functional cargo pockets, and the back pockets had flaps with bottons! Very functional! I can see why we don't want to look like Army troops planning to attack Iran, when at camp, but since the Army has gone to full green or Tan camo, for all current field units, why can't we BSA, use the old style, again VERY functional designs! Scouter Don From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Fri Mar 20 03:14:08 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id DAA05623 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 03:14:08 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7510; Fri, 20 Mar 98 02:05:49 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9295; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 02:05:01 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 8244 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 02:04:09 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8243; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:18:08 -0500 Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 19 Mar 98 21:18:00 CDT Received: from RAGerhard@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id JEOUa20649 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 22:15:56 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 22:15:56 EST Reply-To: RAGerhard Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: RAGerhard Subject: Re: Neckerchiefs, pants, and toilet paper To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 98-03-19 11:48:17 EST, you write: << In doing so I believe we denegrade both the scout uniform and the military one. Military personnel are not children playing. They are extremly proud of their uniform as ALL BOY SCOUTS should be. >> And somehow Scouts wearing OD BDUs is denegrating, but kids in the mall with purple BDUs is not? Also, since when are BDUs strictly military apparell? Let's get this issue straight - What are we arguing? I think it's not so much about being proud of the uniform as much as having a uniform that is functional. I don't think the military has a patent on that. Admit it, BDUs are far more functional - and comfortable - than Scout pants. How is it degrading for Scouts to want that? Robert Gerhard Cubmaster & Webelos ADL BSA Pack 83, Ft. Worth, TX From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Fri Mar 20 03:15:25 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id DAA05825 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 03:15:25 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7512; Fri, 20 Mar 98 02:07:13 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9331; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 02:06:25 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 8240 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 02:05:16 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8239; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:16:39 -0500 Received: from mail.net1plus.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 19 Mar 98 21:15:41 CDT Received: from [209.113.187.42] by mail.net1plus.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-39375U5000L500S0) with SMTP id AAA158; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 22:11:08 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 22:20:47 -0500 Reply-To: Branden Morris Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Branden Morris Subject: Re: Uniforming X-To: Dale Karweik To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: At 12:22 PM 3/19/98, Dale Karweik wrote: >...these are >all things we teach our Scouts and Scouters for hiking, camping and >backpacking. Why does't our uniforms reflect this? I agree - too many >decisions are made in air conditioned offices. No backpacker would ever >have designed those brillo pad waist band shorts. Comments like this always make me ask, "Is the uniform designed to be used as a practical, working uniform, or a dressier, ceremonial uniform?" I'd submit that the uniform isn't intended to be used as expedition-quality gear. Granted, we're not supposed to imitate the military; but the military does have work utility uniforms, and they have dress uniforms. Each one has a specific purpose, and times when you wear it and times when you don't. It's pretty clear to everyone that the uniform as it currently exists isn't all that appropriate as outdoor clothing (which is why, for weekend trips, our troop doesn't require or even encourage uniforming). The materials and workmanship aren't designed to withstand the rigors of streneous outdoor use. However, as more "formal" attire, the uniform is great. It allows all Scouts to feel that they are a part of the same unit. They can show pride in their achievements and accomplishments. Personally, I like it this way. I'd rather rely on knowledgeable, trusted outiftters to design and manufacture my gear -- parkas, raingear, packs, etc. Many different companies are devoted to a single product line or technology, and are able to make that product the most useful and most efficient product available. The BSA doesn't have the resources or the expertise to do as good of a job in manufacturing outdoor equipment and clothing as do some of the "big name" outiftters. What the BSA does do well is provide a program, and support material for that program - including uniforms. Personally, I don't find the uniforms uncomfortable for meetings,training, etc., especially if you go with the 100% cotton options (which, as we know, wouldn't be good in the elements). For the intended purposes in support of the aims of Scouting as a method of Scouting, the uniform serves its purposes well. Baden-Powell's Boy's Brigade uniforms were more functional as a military work uniform. However, lots have changed since 1910. There also wasn't such a quality industry in outdoor gear back then, either, so they made do with military surplus. Today we have the luxury of using better products to keep us dry and warm and comfortable outside; those products just aren't made by the BSA, and I wouldn't want to pay for BSA fleeces or parkas just to be "uniform" if they weren't going to do what they needed to. I don't want to advocate that the BSA develop a "utility" uniform and a "dress" uniform. Uniforms already are costly. What I do advocate is that we use uniforms for their intended purposes, and we use other appropriate gear when we need to. My advice? Keep the uniforms for "home" events -- meetings, projects, community exposure, ceremonies, training -- and use the real stuff in the outdoors. YiS, Branden Morris -- Branden Morris morris@net1plus.com http://www.net1plus.com/users/morris/branden.html From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Fri Mar 20 03:16:53 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id DAA05858 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 03:16:53 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7514; Fri, 20 Mar 98 02:08:57 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9353; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 02:07:41 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 8186 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 02:06:41 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8185; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:01:53 -0500 Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 19 Mar 98 21:01:42 CDT Received: from RAGerhard@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id JMJRa11672 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 22:00:04 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Message-ID: <18a1bfca.3511dbb6@aol.com> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 22:00:04 EST Reply-To: RAGerhard Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: RAGerhard Subject: Re: Neckerchiefs, pants, and toilet paper To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 98-03-19 08:32:19 EST, you write: << My Troop requires class A or B uniforms traveling to and from activities. When we camp as a Troop we allow a wide latitude of attire depending on the activity, but we specifically forbid blue jeans. >> "Wide latitude"..."specifically forbid blue jeans"...somehow that sounds like an oxymoron. (I'm asuming that includes black jeans, brown jeans, red jeans...) What's left? Poplin? While I'm not a clothier, it occurs to me that there are not a great deal of different types of pants available: denim, poly-cotton blends (such as Scout pants), poplin...what else? Out of curiosity, what DO the Scouts in the above mentioned troop wear? Robert Gerhard From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Fri Mar 20 07:29:02 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id HAA19517 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 07:29:02 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7602; Fri, 20 Mar 98 06:20:57 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0027; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 06:21:38 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 9850 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 06:20:29 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9849; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 06:17:25 -0500 Approved-By: EIDSON@TCUBVM Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7846; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:43:06 -0500 Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 19 Mar 98 18:42:59 CDT Received: from bigbyte.mosquitonet.com (bigbyte.mosquitonet.com) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #20456) id <01IUUU961N3400DDBS@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU> for Scouts-L@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:03:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from default (ppp34.mosquitonet.com [206.129.11.34]) by bigbyte.mosquitonet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA03593 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:00:17 -0900 X-Sender: ship272@mail.geocities.com MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980319130624.0079ce00@mail.geocities.com> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:06:24 -0900 Reply-To: Tyler Brooks Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Tyler Brooks Subject: Re: od "Official Uniforms" X-To: Scouts-L Youth Group List To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L In-Reply-To: <9803191020.AA27931@unix3.is.tcu.edu> Status: RO X-Status: The Military doen't issue olive green BDU's, they issue the camoflauge ones. Mr. Kasley said that they don't allow camo or any other color besides olive green. I see no problem with this, in fact I wear and old pair of olive green fatigue pants with my scout shirt from time to time, I think they're more comfy than official scout pants and most folks can't tell the difference. Besides it looks better than wearing jeans with the uniform. >The last time I looked there was only one official uniform for the BSA. > In fact national rules and regulations are specific on this point (wearing >military uniforms as scout uniforms). I don't have my trusty red white and >blue rules book with me but it's in there. > Tyler Brooks Lodge Chief, Toontuk Lodge #549 ASM Troop 10 Bos'n SES 272, The Wandering Star Eagle Class o' 97!!! Fairbanks, Alaska Midnight Sun Council From <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Fri Mar 20 07:31:35 1998 Return-Path: <@tcuavm.is.tcu.edu:owner-scouts-l@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU> Received: from tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (TCUAVM.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.148]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id HAA20053 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 07:31:35 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by tcuavm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7611; Fri, 20 Mar 98 06:23:41 CDT Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0079; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 06:23:35 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 0052 for SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 06:22:35 -0500 Received: from TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0051; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 06:22:23 -0500 Approved-By: EIDSON@TCUBVM Received: from TCUBVM (NJE origin SMTP@TCUBVM) by TCUBVM.IS.TCU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8257; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:23:16 -0500 Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com by tcubvm.is.tcu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 19 Mar 98 21:23:13 CDT Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id VAA29547; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:21:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from mia-fl4-17.ix.netcom.com(199.183.196.145) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma029518; Thu Mar 19 21:21:28 1998 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <11fcfedb.3511a48f@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <3511E025.9E5C9E56@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 22:19:02 -0500 Reply-To: Doug Roach Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List From: Doug Roach Subject: Re: Scout Uniforms, Right and Wrong? X-To: ScoutSage1 To: Multiple recipients of list SCOUTS-L Status: RO X-Status: ScoutSage1 wrote: >(snip) >However, the program (as I have pointed out before) is becoming one for >the wealthier of our society to participate in. > Amen. >I am a unit commissioner for a unit whose highest income is around > $15,000 a year. There are alternatives. One of them is to check around your area for wealthier units which may be willing to contribute used but serviceable uniform parts to a "Uniform Bank" for your group. Another option is to check with somebody like Cody Armstrong at his web site: http://www.globalserve.net/~codyak/CUBCodyAK.htm The uniforms he has for sale there are less than half price over current BSA catalogue prices. (If you purchase in bulk, the shipping cost goes way down.) While I have not personally availed myself of his services, I do know someone who has and is quite happy with his products and service. >Many of the "poorer" units I have had the priviledge of working with >scrap the uniform first, then the quality equipment next, followed >soon there after (if costs continue to eat away) by scrapping the >program itself. I for one would rather see an un-uniformed Scout than >an un-Scout > Good luck with your unit. Were I in your place and it came down to it, the uniform would be a donated silk screened t-shirt and jeans. Just don't lose the boys due to economics. YiS, Doug Roach SA Troop 10 - South Florida Council - Miami http://www.action-net.net/T10 mailto:djroach@ix.netcom.com